I'm grateful to have found this forum. (My dues check is in the mail.)

I am presently upgrading the case, dial, and hands of an old B. W. Raymond. The watch is pendant set.

I'm not clear on how the length of the square winding staff in the case relates to its socket in the works vis-a-vie setting and winding modes.

The winding staffs on both the new case and the original case (which is junk) seem to be too long and the keyless work doesn't shift properly from winding to setting mode.

How does one determine the correct length? If an adjustment is necessary, what is the proper way to do that?

Thanks in advance for any help or advice.

Hello, I'm sure others might have a better explanation, but I'll try. First, with the watch out of the case, is it in the setting mode? It should be. Some watches have a screw or lever to place them in winding mode when out of the case for service. If your watch is in the setting mode when out of the case and you take a stem and push it in, it should shift to wind mode. This is easy to see with the dial off. You can also feel it with a separate winding stem or special service tool which you probably don't have. If everything checks out with the watch out of the case, then you may be able to simply adjust the sleeve in the stem of the watch case to bring the winding stem in or out of the case...whichever you need. If the stem is too long even with the sleeve backed out flush with the edge of the case, you can probably file the square end of the stem shorter to make it work. If you turn the sleeve all the way down and it still doesn't go into wind mode with a positive click, you will probably have to change the stem or sleeve or both. There is a special tool for turning the (usually) 4 slots that you will see in the end of the sleeve (looking down the stem of the case).

I hope I haven't confused you. Maybe someone has some pictures that would be of help.

Roger

Thanks for your response, Roger, and no, I'm not at all confused.

I've been a lover of machinery all my life but this is my first venture into watch work. A huge part of what I'm trying to do is figure out how these fascinating little mechanisms work.

The keyless work in my watch lies behind the dial from 11 to a little past 2. There is an arc shaped flat steel spring above the work with an extension, or foot, that reaches beyond the circumference of the plate to contact the watch case at about half past 12. When the foot is depressed, as it would be in the case, the watch is in set mode. Pressing a pin into the winding stem socket throws the work into wind mode. Pressing on the foot returns it to set mode.

Somewhere along the line, this movement was put in a case with mismatched back and bezel (numbers and threads don't match). The subtlties of mating the case and the movement were overlooked and the keyless work was out of whack.

I found a nearly identical, incomplete 7 jewel parts watch with a nice case, hands and dial. If I can sucessfully swap movements, I should have a very nice old B. W. Raymond (and an utter clunker).

I am reluctant to start grinding and filing on things until I understand what I'm doing.

How does the winding stem come out of the case? It would probably help if I knew how to do that.

Thanks for your help.

Hi Christopher

If you could post the serial number of the watch you are working on it would help use figure out exactly what model BWR you are working on.

Tom

Chris

After I posted my last I realized I have a grade 77 BWR in parts, so I took a few photos of the winding & setting.

This 1st photo is of the stem, you notice it is two parts, when the stem from the watch case is inserted it pushed the small pin down which forces the watch into winding mode.

Now this is what you would see under the plates with the watch in a case with it in the wind mode

now this is on the dial side with it in wind mode, you will notice that the wheel where the red line is, is not engaged with the wheel to the left, so all the winding action goes to the wheels on the left in the photo which would wind the watch.

Now this photo is under the bridges & shows the watch if the stem were pulled up in your case to set the time.

The last photo shows under the dial with the watch in time set mode, now you will notice the gear with the red line is engaged so now the gears that set the time are engaged & not the winding gears.

Hope this helps some.

Tom

Also if any of you noticed the teeth missing on a gear here or there, this is just a parts watch.

Tom

Chris

This applies to most stem set pocket watch cases but not all.

The stem comes out from the inside of the case, so 1st the crown is unscrewed by holding onto the opposite end.

This is a tool made to fit different size cases & sleeves to remove or adjust the sleeve.

This is a sleeve after it is unscrewed from the case with the above tool.

Ignore the rust.

This is the three parts back together, you notice the sleeve is split at the end, this allows the beveled portion of the stem slide in & out of the sleeve from wind position to set position.

This photo would be with the crown pushed in & the watch in wind mode.

Now when you pull the crown up to set the time, the stem clicks into the opening in the sleeve where the splits are, this is the click you feel when your pull the stem out.

Hope I helped some.

Tom

So as Roger said, by either screwing the sleve in further or out, changes how far the stem goes into the watch, if it is out too far the watch won't go into the winding mode because it won't push that pin in far enough. Or if it is in to far the watch will not go into time setting mode.

Now one of the springs that moves those gears & the pin in & out could be broken or not making contact with the correct parts. That could also cause the watch not to move back & forth from one mode to the other but it sounds like you were able to make to change by pushing a pin in if I understood you correctly.

Hope all of this makes sense, I am new to this too.

Tom

Tom,

Thank you for the excellent photos and commentary. I've got a pretty good idea how it works, now.

I think my strategy should be to pull the stem out of the case and install the movement sans dial. That way I can verify that the foot contacts the case everything works properly. Assuming it does, I'll set up the stem so it properly engages the keyless work and everything should be fine.

Thank you for your help.

Great pictures Tom...worth a thousand words.

Roger

Christopher...let us know how you make out.

The stem came apart exactly as described. I notice the sleeve threads turn quite freeley in the pendant. It seems there should be a way to hold its position so it doesn't work its way out of adjustment over time.

This will also give me an opportunity to tighten up the bow and tweak it so it's a little straighter.

Hello Christopher and Welcome to IHC185....

You have made a great start with us by starting this string....by doing so it turned into a very informative and instructive tutorial....Thanks for doing so....

Thanks also to Roger & Tom and their photo with commentary discussion to actually show how the stem actually works....by doing so this is a string that will help many of our members and members to be....

We have within our site a series called Helping Hands by John Duval.

I don't know if you have seen any of his tutorials yet but you may want to take a look....

Thanks again....

Regards,
Jerry

I've cleaned and tweaked everything and I've done a trial assembly (with the dial off). While I've not gotten the adjustment right yet, I know it's going to work.

Looking at the sleeve from the junk case, I found two worn spots. Refering to Tom Brown's 8th photo, they would be on opposite sides of the shoulder just to the right of the threads. I assume the ends of the bow are indended to bear on this shoulder and retain the sleeve in its position.

Before I permanently assemble the winding stem, should these parts be lubricated? If so, what lube is recommended?

This old watch wants to run and does so every chance it gets. I have a feeling that after a little tinkering with the regulator, this should be a good timekeeper with no further service necessary. Would it be a good idea to oil the wheel bearings while it's apart or should I let well enough alone?

Thanks for all the great help.

First off my advice might not be correct, I am self taught at this & from reading & posting questions here. I do use a little lube on the sleeve, I use a dab of silicone grease but others may say that is wrong to use.

Watches do need oil on the pivots but only the smallest amount. When a watch is dry it will tend to speed up plus it adds to wear on the parts.

If I stated anything wrong here y'all please correct me.

Tom

Tom,

I don't think there is a wrong or right. There's just what works based on one's experience. You certainly have more experience than I do.

A light coating of grease would, if nothing else, protect these parts from rust. I don't suppose it could migrate elsewhere and cause problems.

Your comment about watches speeding up when dry is interesting because most of my watches run fast. (Also, I wind them morning and night because I occasionally forget and I hate for them to stop. That probably encourages them to run a little fast, too.)

I'm thinking while the top and bottom plate bearings are so accessible, I would wick out any existing liquid oil with Rodico then put in a tiny drop of fresh oil (I have the proper oil and oiling pins.) I don't see how it could possibly hurt unless I over-oiled them and made a mess.

Thanks,
Chris

Chris, as the watch "breathes" through that neck, rust is a no-no and should be cleaned out. A brass brush removes that rust very nicely

I had everything assembled and adjusted. Push in it wound, pull out it set, no problem. Trouble is, after working with it a few times, it went out of adjustment. Now it only winds and won't set.

I haven't taken it apart again but I'm 90% certain the threaded sleeve is turning inside the pendant while I'm turning the stem. There is nothing to prevent this except the friction of the threads themselves.

I thought the ends of the bow would press against the shoulder of the sleeve, just below the threads, and hold it in position. When the sleeve is properly adjusted, however, the ends of the bow align with (refering to Tom's eighth photo) the smaller diameter, snap spring portion of the sleeve.

That doesn't seem right, though. First, it would interfere with the action of the snap spring. Second, the smaller spring portion rotates independently of the threaded part so it wouldn't retain the adjustment anyway.

I wouldn't do anything drastic like peening the threads or using lock-tite because I could never get it apart again if necessary.

Also, there is no way to get the bow to hold position unless the ends press on the snap spring.

It just seems that I'm missing something here.

Hi Christopher,

The sleeve insert is made of 2 pieces. The threaded part and the spring steel part. I believe they should be crimped together and be tight. I have seen a lot of them where the two pieces are not crimped tight and there is quite a bit of movement between the 2 parts. It doesn't take much movement for the engagment to not work properly. Unless the sleeve is turning extremely freely inside the pendant, I doubt if it is moving. If it is, you could take a small drop of jewelers cement and place it on the thread. It will be gummy enough to hold the sleeve in place, but not so much to prevent removal. The bow has no part in holding the sleeve in place.

Roger

The problem just dawned on me!!! (And I think Roger has the answer.)

In my thoroughness to get everything just so, I very carefully filed a deformity off the top of the sleeve thread. It made the sleeve hard to screw in and out. I thought I was improving things but, in fact, I removed the retaining device! (Color me embarassed!)

After reading the thread on mangled watches, I want to correct my error as intelligently as possible. Roger suggests using a drop of jewler's cement. If it will keep the sleeve from turning but let go if the part needs to be removed, that sounds ideal.

I'll have to go on the internet and find some. What should I look for? Are there different types? Or strengths? Or brands?

Hi Christopher,

You can even try a tiny piece of Rodico on the threads to hold in place. Just about anything should work. I also sometimes find automotive products useful for watch repair work. Loctite has a whole line of useful products. Keep us posted on your progress.

Roger

It might take me a while to work through this plus I'll have house guests for a couple of weeks (one of which has a habit of picking things up to look at them). I'll need to tidy things up for now.

Thinking ahead toward mounting the dial, is it best to leave the set screws a tiny bit loose? It seems to me that screwing them up tight could flex the dial and cause hairlines.

The dial foot screws should be snug. I find these over tightened all the time. The brass feet are soft so the screws don't have to be cranked on. I don't think there is a correlation between the tightness of the screws and dial hairlines, however. When I am servicing a watch and remove the dial I immediately turn the screws in so I don't lose them when I put the plate in the ultrasonic cleaner.

BTW...a frequently overlooked item is that thin dial washer that is cupped. They are either missing or flat. This is a very important part! It is actually a spring washer that keeps the hour wheel from moving up and down and in turn keeping the hour hand from moving up and down. Without this little dial washer it is easy to have interference between the hands.

Roger

Thank you for mentioning the spring washer. My parts watch had one but the project watch didn't. I didn't realize it's an OEM part. I'll put it in the good watch. As I remember, it sat on the hour wheel just under the dial.

That is correct. It is the last part you put on before putting the dial on.

After several months, I am finally able to get back to this project. I am grateful for all the good advise so far.

The watch wants to run so I'm not going to disassemble the movement and give it a full cleaning and servicing at this time. I'll know how well it keeps time after I install the hands.

While the movement is out of the case, I want to oil it. I've wicked the old oil out of the bearings with Rodico. I have a bottle of watch oil, oiling pins, and an oil cup.

I know a tiny droplet of oil should go in each of the pivot bearings. Are there any other points, such as the keyless work, that should be oiled? I know oil should be used very sparingly. Any oiling tricks, tips, or cautions would be appreciated.