HI, I HAVE AN ELGIN 16S 21J WATCH IN AN ELGIN RR CASE. THE FUNNY THING IS THE SERIAL NUMBER CHECK SHOWED THAT SOME WERE 21 OR 22 JEWEL. THIS ONE HAS A SWEEP SECOND HAND AND A SUBDIAL. ON THE MOVEMENT IN A SMALL STAMPING IS US ARMY AC. I BELIEVE THE MOVEMENT WAS MODIFIED TO THE SWEEP SECOND HAND BECAUSE IT SAYS RIGHT ON THE MOVEMENT 21 JEWELS. THE 22nd I BELIEVE IS FOR THE SWEEP SECOND HAND. THE PART FOR THE SWEEP SECOND HAND APPEARS TO HAVE BEEN MADE FROM ANOTHER PART WITH THE RIGHT JEWEL IN IT. ANYONE KNOW ANYTHING ELSE ABOUT THIS MOVEMENT. WAS IT MILITARY AND COVERTED? BILL VAUGHAN
Posts: 103 | Location: Missouri in the USA | Registered: August 02, 2008
This Elgin watch is in the same mode as the Hamilton 992B/4992B, the 992B was the standard version and the 4992B was the military version with the optional "hackset" so that all watches could be set to the same exact time for a maneuver. Elgin also offered the same with the 21j 571 but the military version was a 581 that came in either a 21 or 22 jewel. If you go to the Elgin site and enter your serial number it should tell you which run was 21j and which run was 22j. If my memory is correct the extra jewel has to do with the hack set mechanism so it should be visible when you look at the extra gearing on the back of the movement.
Posts: 1797 | Location: Michigan in the USA | Registered: September 19, 2009
In the image below this post you will see Elgin B.W. Raymond number 41755280 which is from my collection. Click that number to see the Elgin Database search result, also, providing the movement number in questions always helps in research. I agree with Claude's information, the 22nd Jewel was added to a nominally 21-Jewel movement and the 21 versus 22 thing can be a little confusing. Hamilton did a more professional looking re-design on the 4992B which was produced in far greater quantities and for a far greater time period.
The dial is black with white 24-hour markings and "G.C.T" for "Greenwich Civil Time" above center, similar in appearance to and often mistaken for a 4992B at first glance. Apparently the government had Elgin help with production during the 1942-43 shortage of material, same thing happened with Jeeps when Willys-Overland of Toledo could not keep up with demand and some were produced by Ford at their River Rouge facility.
Outside case-back markings on my Elgin are... "AN-5740 (This is the government classification for these watches regardless of manufacturer), MFRS. PART NO.-1790 CONT. NO. W535-AC-37880, SER. NO. AF-43-2919 (A 1943 Army Air Corps. Contract) , ELGIN" and inside "CASED AND TIMED BY ELGIN NATIONAL WATCH CO." in a circular pattern with Keystone Trade-Marks, BASE METAL and case number 95313 beneath.
Hope this helps,
Lindell
Uncommon Elgin "G. C. T." 22-Jewel movement...
Posts: 10553 | Location: Northeastern Ohio in the USA | Registered: November 19, 2002
Could you please post clear photos of your watch, showing the movement, the dial, and the outside back of the case to show us all of the markings?
The 'US ARMY AC' stands for United States Army Air Corps, but your mention of it being in a Rail Road case sounds odd. It could very well be a marriage of parts which happens all the time.
By the way, please consider not using all capital letters when posting. On the internet the standard etiquette is that posting on forums with all capitals is considered to be shouting. Thanks.
Posts: 872 | Location: Baltimore, Maryland USA | Registered: September 20, 2004
William, your watch movement is an Elgin grade 581 and rest assured, it came that way from the factory....without knowing your serial number, I can't tell you exactly when....When posting questions regarding a watch movement always include the serial number of the movement....
Elgin made 20800 units of the grade 581 during 1940, 41 & 1942 in 9 runs....in all runs except part of #8 and all of #9 the 581's are shown to be 22 jewel, with mixed results in #8 and none shown in #9....
Regards,
Jerry
Posts: 2828 | Location: California in the USA | Registered: June 23, 2008
Thanks for the info. I've already checked the Elgin site and it is just as Jerry King stated. I've attached a picture of the movement and the dial. Bill Vaughan
Posts: 103 | Location: Missouri in the USA | Registered: August 02, 2008
I agree with Claude's information, the 22nd Jewel was added to a nominally 21-Jewel movement and the 21 versus 22 thing can be a little confusing. Hamilton did a more professional looking re-design on the 4992B which was produced in far greater quantities and for a far greater time period.
