Being a Ch 185 neophyte, I just stumbled across this topic, which folows up on a discussion I had with Lindell last week. It does seem to confirm my understanding of my 23J Sangamo Special as being housed in an original, unmarked case. Serial #3693558, which appears to be early production. Case #4718728. I think it is a size 17 & Meggers book lists it as such. Case & dial appear to be very similar, if not identical, to the first posts in this topic.

The dial has some spider web hairlines from the center to 10-12-1. Movement is pretty nice & the screw-back, hinged-bezel case is decent...no apparent brassing. I think this may be a "first run" of this watch?

Here is the watch:

Case Markings:

Movement:

3693001 is what has been indicated as the first of the 17 size model 10 movements.....



But........... you were waiting for that eh..?


Practical examination of examples in the past 8 or so years has revealed there are some 16s movements in the mix...

It takes disassembly of the watch to confirm this, and I, for one, can't buy em to measure...

Your movement is far enough along in the run to be a 17 size, but a pair of calipers will tell the tale....

the pillar plate will measure larger than a 16 size movement...
or take a spare bunn dial and place on movement.. it if is 'swallowed' by the pillar plate, it would certainly be 17 size...

maybe someone can chime in on actual measurements....

one comment.... I believe the crown on your case is a replacement.... take a look at the crowns depicted in the ads and the other examples...

Hi Ted,

As a follow-up to Terry's comments, except for the crown it also looks correct to my eye. Perhaps you'll find it interesting to compare your much earlier watch to my later one that and others that are shown in this topic. The case changes along with relation of serial numbers relate as they should.

However the watch Terry shows early-on is probably closest to yours and yours is as Terry pointed out a very early example. We'll soon be publishing a Sangamo Special Database in this Illinois Forum listing known to be correct examples and what you see below may show where your watch fits in with others in the listing.

Early ones are noted as not having "Sangamo Special" markings on their cases.


Here is a small sample of what is to come...

_________3524286___________4718600___________________________
_________3524442___________4750852___________________________
_________3524586___________4750349___________________________
_________3524688___________4750798___________________________
_________3524744___________4750121___________________________
_________3610190___________5031627___(No Sangamo Sp marking)____
_________3610299___________4718749___________________________
_________3610508___________4718821___________________________
_________3610640___________4718770___________________________
_________3693169___________5031592________10 / _______________
_________3693197___________4750680___________________________
_________3693318___________5031955________10 / _______________
_________3693383___________5031758________10 / _______________
_________3693476___________5032144___(No Sangamo Sp marking)____
_________3693924___________5346411___________________________


Stay tuned,

Lindell

Hi all Robert Sweet turned me to this post ,and Id like to share my Sangamo Specials with you.

A few more pictures to follow......This one is in a 14k ygf hinged case marked sixty hour.

the movement.....

lastly with its brother fitted with a Canadian Dial and 14k solid gold case

Thanks Michael for sharing your really nice Sangamo Specials.

I especially like your nice box collection.

Would you care to share your box end label?

Robert

Robert ,
Is this what youre asking for....There will be a few more pics after thia one.

heres another

and another......

the last one.

Robert I just got off the phone with Lin,I think you migh tbe asking for the end label that carries the Case and Movement #s. The Numbers with this watch are carried on the Aluminum box only.

Hi Lindell,
Yes it was a nice chat. I almost forgot .....The FOB Jerry had with the watch also.

Michael,
Thank you. These nice SS boxes are seldom seen. I really appreciate you sharing all the nice photos.

Robert

Michael Beautiful watches thanks for showing them that 14k is a stunner..

Lin, Robert and Samie,
You're very welcome, and thank you for the kind words. I'm going to change the Quote a bit, it comes from Patek Philippe, "You never actually own a Sangamo Special. You merely take care of it for the next generation.” I think this fits well when talking about these fine American Time pieces. What say you?

Michael-

According to the Illinois Encyclopedia by Meggars, and Ehrhardt model 13 only came in double sunk 17 size dials, or a 17 size metal dial. The Rigid bow case housed model 13 exclusively. Your green-gold rigid bow case should have a model 13 movement, and also have a double sunk dial.

The dial on this watch is very nice, and a rare 17 size single sunk Montgomery-Gothic dial that is correct for a model ten 17 size. It would appear that someone used an incorrect dial in an effort to dress this watch up.

We have not seen it all yet, but for this watch to be considered nonargumentative it would need factory paper work.

Robert

Hi Robert ,
I knew this question would arise,and thank you for stating what Ive been holding back from mentioning since I posted.Yes it is a mod 13.

First I must ask if you have the other Meggers and Ehrhart book titled Railroad Watches. on page 174 it shows the only dial that comes close to mine(24hr) and it says S.S. only, mine is a S.S. Mont/24hr Canadian dial. If you have found this dial somewhere else please tell me. The other (Blue) book ,on page 105 says this about dials...

" The "Sangamo Special" was prominently advertised during its lifetime. Therefore it is not difficult to find pictures of the dials that could be obtained on these watches;however, they must be 17-size.this information is provided in the listings which follow."

I beleive your reffering to the listing on page 106 which states.." 17-size double sunk glass enamel bold Arabic or modern Gothic regular or Montgomery dial,or silver dial" I see your point.

However, with the data presented in the other book which points out on page 174 the Canadian/24 hr dial only came in S.S. its entirely possible that this dial is original to this watch. Could this watch have been presented to a Canadian official ? Yes its possible.

I read some where in this web page that Bill Meggers admitted they did the best they could with the data they had and imagined his books could be revised. To sumurize this dial is a 17sz S.S. and on a mod 13 IMHO it is correct.

Im always up for a good debate. Thank you Robert for your sharp attention to details.
Mike

One last observation Robert, Roy and Bill started revising thier data after the "book" went to print. One just has to look at the S/N lists in the back .

Mike

Michael-

On page 174 of the Meggars and Ehrhardt "Railroad Watches" book all of the 17 size dials are single sunk. That is because they were taken from the 1923 Illinois material list, which is identical to the one Lindell posted. At this time the model 13 did not exist, so the dials had to of been made for a model 10.

It was one year later, in 1924 when the first model 13 was made. The model 13 was a new movement, it had it's own new case, and "yes" it came with it's own double sunk dial.

More than likely your dial was specially made, or an aftermarket dial. It is still a nice dial for a model 10.

The correct dial for a model 13 is double sunk. The best example that I know of is pictured below.

Robert

17 Size Montgomery-Gothic 12-24hr

Robert and Lindell,
Point made ,but like Mr.Meggers said we did the best we can and Im sure there will be revisions. No,this is a glass dial , not one of those "swiss" reproductions.

Robert the comment you made for supporting documentation, I think thats a pandoras box we do not want to open. In the railroad guide Mr. Meggars states that watches were commonly "recased" because of the wear caused by cinders in the pockets . Any watch today could be in question of its "originality" Correct?

I have to think back to 1926/1928 when these watches were made .I really dont think these guys thought about what was going to be original to their watches in 2006. If it were me in 1926 and I wanted the dial,Id have it installed and wouldnt give it a second thought. its still a size seventeen isnt it?

It looks like we have proven that the Books are still in need of revision dont you agree? Both these dials are not represented anywhere that I see .

I think both of us have rare pieces that have been documented here in this forum, and Im sure there will be more after were both long gone. Thanks you for sharing that Great looking mod 13!!! I like our spirited debate ,it not only brings out differnt opinions it will give others something to think about. Isnt this forum great?

Mike

Guys,
Please dont misunderstand me. Im all for keeping these watches as original as possible. I bought this watch with this dial. No I dont know when this dial and movement were "mated" . All I know is that this is the way it was handed to me. I would in no way want to break any watch up ,this is the way it came to me and when its time to part ways thats the way its going to leave .


Some thing else about originallity...Lin I think you told me you once collected old cars,correct? my farther is the original owner of a 1961 Corvette. I was tuning it up a few years ago ,it need points. The distribitor is a dual point set up .Can you imagine the look on my face when I was told this car didnt come with a dual ignition!!! Dad still has the sales recipt with all supporting docs thats clearly proves it did come with a dual ignition at the time of sale. My point is data gets lost over the years. By the way the car is still in the Family.Mom and Dad spent their honeymoon touring the country in it!!

Mike

Michael-

Based on what we do know, neither of your model 13 watches are correctly cased.(Check Sangamo serial and case number list by date) They are not original. The best that you can do is make them authentic by switching the movements. You are fortunate in that when the switch is made, both watches become authentic except for the model 10 dial.

Anything could of have been, but when you are finding exception to the rule, documentation is needed for a valid argument.

Anyway you look at it, the watch tin is not valid documentation, and will be lost if an attempt is made toward authenticity.

In closing I would suggest that there is additional information since the book was written, none of which support your dial.

Robert

Nice car

Robert ,
I never suggested that it was did I? It seems that youre not open to an opinion that could be possile or even admit that Mr Meggers knew there would be more data that would come out in later years.

Prove to me that my other is cased wrong, you cant,nor could I. If youre going to tell me about case S/Ns tell me its not possible a case that was made in say 1925 wasnt used until 1927. You cant can you? Lin and I had this discusion a few days ago and agreed its impossible to . Unless you casaed my watches at the factory ,or know something I dont. Did you own either one of these before I did? Ive owned the marked 60 since 1992 and recieved the other this year. Is yours original to its case?

Why is it so hard to acknowledge my opinions as valid? Are you in possesion of Illinois company records that could verify my opinions true or false?

Michael-

No, I like spirited debate, and I am open to all opinions that are possible. No watch can be proved original, even if it looks original without documentation. Though my goal would be to keep my watches nonargumentative based on what we know today.

At this time I respectfully disagree with your point, and it is OK that you disagree with mine. I will continue to remain open to any opinion; however, I usually favor the opinions of experts with vast knowledge and experience handling these watches.

No doubt I will always remember you when I see your avatar.

Robert

Hi Robert,
Thats cool, Im in agreement, we'll just have to aree to disagree on this. I have to tell you though I did have this similar discussion with the seller of the watch about this dial. I thought the same thing as you did but when I read the "Books" I didnt care if that dial was S.S. I still think its entirely possible that the watch could have come with this dial. Really when comes down to it ,how many times does a solid gold Sangamo Special surface? I had a weak moment and pulled the trigger!!! Stay tuned I have another watch Ill be posting here in the near future thats sure to bring alot of debate, and no it is not an Illinois watch. Stay tuned.............


P.S. If Im ever in North Carolina or traveling the interstate it wont be hard to spot you on the road!!! Yeah ,I think Lin placed my avatar in here ,it just showed up one day.

Michael-

You ask how many times a "Solid Gold" Sangamo Special surfaces? Not often...here is mine..enjoy!

Robert

14k Green Gold Hinge Bezel & Back
*Note Correct DS Gothic-Montgomery Dial