I have been collecting open face Molnijas for several years. The collection is in two parts.

Case back designs

The badged collection

'Badged' in other company names ...

Thx for sharing the many "comemerative" case designs from the late 1970's to the end.

While I don't have any Russian pocket watches I do have 3 or is it 4 Vostok wristwatches all manual wind and as far as accuracy will rival any quartz watch.They are super in my book!! Thanks for sharing your watches.Roger

Welcome to IHC185!

Lovely collections you have there. It´s very nice to see someone else putting some effort in collecting the lesser valued every day watches, because they are most likely the first to vanish. Then there is the fact that Molnijas are very good and sturdy every day carries with an excellent accuracy. At least those who are not too new.
And that brings me to the strange way Molnija name their calibers. It has nothing what so ever to do with quality or jewel count. I have seen 3602´s with 15, 17 and 18 jewels. It merely means that the movement is 36 millimeters in diameter and has a sub seconds register and no shock protection (incabloc). 3603 on the other hand means 36 mm, sub second and incabloc shock protection.
Regards Krister

Welcome Julian, I too like the special edition watches put out by Molnija. Here is an interesting one. It is the 500 yr commemorative Columbus “Discovery” watch.

The reverse

And the dial

I think they're great. A few years ago(or maybe longer?) Molnia came out with a new grade, shock absorbers for the balance! I believe it was designated 3603. Didn't think that much of the dial of the only watch I could get, I'm not a big Roman Numerals fan, but I could live with it.

If Molnia had kept the same level of manufacturing capability, which is reflected in the quality of the parts, the 3602 probably could have been exported in greater numbers. At the higher levels of quality (late 40's, early 50's, and some sporadic bursts in the 60's) the 3602 would have been a real competitor with the 649x series from Unitas. Of course that was not to be. There doesn't seem to have been steady maintenance of the equipment and the watches suffered for it.

The original design seems to have come from the French company LIP, as well as the machinery for the manufacture.

The 3602 and all of the Soviet Era pocket watches that were produced give an interesting glimpse into watch making in the CCCP. Apparently the movement production was planned in advance, perhaps under a 5-year plan. Each watch would get stamped with the appropriate year to count toward that quota.

There were many different models of the 3602. It came in 15j, 17j and 18j versions. There was a redesign of the crown wheel in the late 60's, early 70's that improved upon the design slightly and lowered the amount of parts by one. On some of the Siberian models the bushing for the center wheel appears to be made out of a different type of metal than the others, perhaps a metal that doesn't shrink as much?

I've serviced a few dozen of the 3602's and a recurring theme was shims for the balance cock. I asked a friend named Boris, who started as a watchmaker when Stalin was in power. He said the shims were part of the manufacturing process. They had tools that determined how many shims to use. Up to three was acceptable. So if you want to save yourself a headache, if you service an old 3602, notice any shims that are used, keep them and replace them where you found them.

Here's that watch I got. Decent enough for $120, what can you expect?




1956, 17j and labeled a 423, a decent regulator and some hand-engraved indicators.




The Arctic Model, labeled on the dial a "Chronometre", but only 15j. Gold Chatons for the jewels and jewels that have been rounded on the edges instead of left flat, that's expensive. Also, a different type of bushing for the center wheel. And also the more functional regulator with indicators for European as well as Western users.




1963 production. Designated as 433? Good regulator with hand engraved indicators. Cosmetically nice w/stripes and crown wheel is 1st version. Below it is a 1960 model which is basically the same.



1960 Model.




18j, 3602, probably manufactured in the 70's. Has crappy regulator. Crown wheel version 2 is in use. Gone are the strips. The finish, which to be correct (as far as the Swiss have deemed it to be so) should be something like a Butler finish. This finish is almost there but not quite. Still, you can definitely see that some effort was put into making a decent looking watch.




This one must have been one of the last with the SU marking. The finish is not adequately conveyed in the photo. It looks like it was dragged across a piece of 200 grit sandpaper, once, and not even bothering to clean up the edges. But it's still the basic 3602. A great beginners watch with some history.

Thank you Frank for your great images showing the change in quality as the Soviet Union came to an end. Glad to see that I'm not the only one that keeps a place for these inexpensive but very good running pocket watches.

Just for infomations puposes, I picked up a Molnija in Odessa in what was then called the dollar stores. It was the Russians' way of getting hard currency from the West. The watch cost me $11.00.

Roland - Thanks for the (positive) comments. Always nice to know someone is reading. And yes, I definitely agree, they're a good running PW even at two or three times the $ they usually go for.

Hi Jerry! - Eleven USD sounds darn good for a new watch. By any chance could you take a pic of the movement and post it? I'm curious if anything (literally, any detail at all) has changed. I got quite a few of these when they were ultra-cheap on EBay 8-10 years ago but I haven't seen a current one.

Frank: I bought the watch about 15 years ago, so I don't think it will give you any new information. It is a hunter model with the seconds bit at 9 o'clock. The dial is a dark maroon color and looks like plastic. It is a typical 3602 calibre. I am going to be taking some photos next week and will add the Molnija to the list.

Good Day,

Frank, if You do not mind, I would like to make couple of corrections regarding the Molniya watches.

What You see as 423 is actually acronym for 2nd Watch Factory the "Ч2З" or "2. Часовой Завод", which is located in Moscow.

The 443, stands for ЧЧЗ or "Челябинский Часовой Завод" meaning Chelyabinsk Watch Factory, which is located in the Ural town of Chelyabinsk.

Also there is Molniya with central seconds hand as well as high grade Molniya 3602 with different design of regulator.

Molniya came in versions 3601, 3602, 3602a, 3602b, 3603 and 3608, and yes, they all are based on LIP R36 movement.

I shall try and post some images of these other movements as well as their respective parts lists.

BTW, Molniya or in Russian script "Молния" stands for Thunderbolt.

Cheers

quote:

I shall try and post some images of these other movements as well as their respective parts lists.

Dushan, that would be very nice if you could do that. After all, this is what we all wants. To learn more. Looking forward to it.
Regards
Krister

Thank you very much! Wow!

Dushan thanks very much explaining so clearly what the 442 and 443 stamp means. I guessed that they referred to some variation in the production or indicated where it came from. Do you know what it means when a watch has "4K-6" stamped on it? I'm going to have to go look in my spares pile and see how many stamped ones are there.

I'm very interested to know what the 3601 and the 3808 are like, or perhaps I could still buy them on EBay if I know what to look for. I know all the variations of the 3602 and I have one of the 3603's. I knew it was a LIP (French) design but I never knew it was called R36. Those are great details and the knowledge and the trivia contribute so much.

Now for some sillines:
I want to know (this is a rhetorical question) WHY CHE?



I've got 30+ of these 3602s and all of them are regular clock dials expect TWO of STALIN and THREE of CHE?!?!?!??!

It is true that that Uncle Joe did get the nicer movement (in this one and the other I'm not photographing, which is pretty much identical).



So I wondered, is it still like that? Is it still all about Che? So I order the $5 grab-bag (+ $7 shipping) from Leningrad or Stalingrad or, well somewhere there in the Soviet Union, and I'm supposed to get momentos of the glorious age of Smokin' Joe, La Homme Nikita, etc. What I got was a large bag of this:


A close-up of the watch that had Stalin on the dial. It's imprinted with the date 2-49, 15j, 443 which is short for Челябинский Часовой Завод, serial number and one unfamiliar imprint, "4K-6". What does that mean? And yes, I do really like the Molnija's. They are designed nicely, they are tough, and the 3602 has a BREGUET COIL in this day and age, that's pretty cool.

I'm guessing the old Communist connection between the Soviets and Cuba, they thought they had another market for the Che watches.

Regards! Mark

Mark, that sounds like a very reasonable guess.

Still, it's strange that I and a lot of other collectors got these so they had a good circulation in the Ukraine (that's the address where I think most of my purchases were sent from). After studying the CCCP, the collectives and the five-year plan I think that maybe, just maybe, they might have made to many of this watch.

I thinks there's some possibility that Che may have been popular as a symbol in the CCCP, I was joking around a little bit above if anyone was taking me seriously.

But, I have an odd twist here (boy, it's like a Shamylan movie). Here's the dial and movement pic that looks like it was put together in 1952 or sometime after the movement was made. When I received this watch in one of my grab-bag specials it was a serious WTF moment. The dial looks like it was mass-produced, or at the very least factory made. And I'm positive that that guy on the watch is not popular is Russia, hmphh, or I should say was not popular in the CCCP, especially in 1952 or thereabouts.

If anyone would like to help (and it seems like there's a few in this thread) I was thinking that it would be interest to start putting together a list of the watches to figure out when the certain types, or variations, were being made.



In this example there's:

1. Serial - self explanatory.
2. Date on Movement - Usually this is on some of the earlier movements and will be formatted like "5-55" for July, 1955. (NOTE: if the movement has "SU" or "RU" printed on the movement, note that in this column.
3. Jewels - It should be either 15, 17 or 18. On later models the number was often not stamped on the movement; if there's a cover on the escape then it is a 18j movement.
4. Factory Mark - This is usually either "423" or "443".
5. 4K-6 - This is mark that is usually printed next to the crown wheel.
6. Crown Wheel - Does the Crown Wheel (the wheel that is directly on top of where the stem is) have one or two screws securing it?
7. Regulator Type - Long or Short. Long is about 6 mm long, short is about 1mm long.
8. Decoration - Does it have Geneva Stripes? Does is have Russian characters on the ratchet wheel? Later ones have a somewhat smooth brushed finish, then there are ones with a rough brushed finish and lastly those with a rough brushed finish and no silver-coloured plating.

So thanks in advance to anyone who take the time to look at their Molniya 3602's and gather this information.

* - Here's a link to get the Spreadsheet outline I Used. MS Office 2003 file type.

In response to Frank's request, for data on the 3602's we have, I spent some time this afternoon taking the backs off some of mine. Most confirmed the detailed descriptions given earlier in this thread, but one turned out to be a 'bitsa'

The majority of the movement is plain brass with just one component in steel decorated with Geneva stripes.

None of mine have date of manufacture and some give no indication of jewel count. Several have a Mercedes/CND symbol - as shown towards the top of this image. Can anybody shed some light on the meaning of the symbol on a watch movement ?



The movement is in a hunter case and actually runs 'backwards'. There is a Star of David on the front cover and the dial has Hebrew numbers.

Even with the meager amount of information there's enough here there's enough to make some educated guess' and a few SWAGs that are probably right.

First, it looks like the Serial number got reset every 3-4 years. That's right in line with the Soviet 5-year plans. The joke and reality is that they were regularly revised after 3 years and superseded with a new 5-year plan. Or so the joke goes. It wasn't always that way, but they made enough jokes about it that is happened enough. Anyways, production for runs was something like:

1948-1952
1952-1953
1953-1955
1956-1958+
possibly 1959-1963
1963-1965

Really need some info for 1959 through 1963. But, in all likely hood, there was one production run from 1959-1963 or at most two resets. I can't see more than that. Also of interest it that factory 443 took over for factory 423. I wonder why?

Now the last dated watch I have is February 1965. Did anything happen around then (Feb '65), politically, to shake things and force everyone to come up with a new five-year plan? Yep, there sure was. Brezhnev came into power in Oct. of 64 but wasn't do much governing until the New Year, 1965.

It's telling that the one watch that I have from 1965 has a very nice satin-like Butler finish and it has the new jewel count, the production and the factory symbol all in larger than normal letters/numbers. It feels like a special promotion or a last farewell kind of thing. It was one of the first watches to have an 18j count instead of 15j. It's the first 3602 that I know of to have the experimental regulator.


--- End of talk about Production, start of tech talk and comparison with Unitaas 649x ---


During the Brezhnev era and forever after these watches have been fairly boring. It's an excellent watch. A low amount of pieces. Easy to understand what each piece is doing. It's the best watch for a beginner to start with. It beats out the Unitas 649X because of price. You can buy at least 5, maybe 10 of these watches, all functional, and start breaking things left and right and things popping off into the blackholes that gather around watchmakers and there's no worry with 4 spares; you'll get 1 Unitas for that price. If you can get 5 Unitas 649X's cheap then the Unitas would win.

I mentioned the Unitas 649X series above in comparison to the 3602 series (3602a, b, c and the 3603). They were built like they're meant to be compared. Both PW's that are time proven. They both have deceptively simple designs, can functional long past the time most watches would stop and they are easy to fix. I said that the 3602 won as far as the watch to have beginners mangle. Let's look at the real world.

Comparing a watch with a 3603 against one with a 6497, the Unitas wins. Why? Because the standardization of the part are almost perfect with the Unitas. You could take five movements, switch everything and put together and 4 of them will run right away, the fifth will be going strong about 10 minutes later. You can do it with 3602's, and you should be able to get all the 3602's going, but they are going to have some serious timing issues which will take hours to correct.

In the real world, wristwatches can get a real beating sometimes and need to be repaired. If the parts are in stock, Jules Borel will have them to you in a few days. When you install the new parts they work! With the 3603 it's a little hit or miss although I understand that the factory in Germany is doing excellent quality control (if it's really in Germany), so maybe this point will be moot soon.

They can cap the other side of escape wheel. A pocket may watch may spend a lot of time laying on a desk or nightstand, dial up, but a wristwatch needs a wider variety. They need to learn how to apply decent Cote de Geneve or at least smooth satiny brush that is on a coating of Rhodium, not bare brass. Some snailing on the crown and ratchet wouldn't hurt. They could also figure out how to incorporate polishing of the screw heads when they're being manufactured. And crack down on quality control.

If Molnia could surmount these issues, especially the quality control problems, the 3602 (or 3603, w/shock absorber) has the potential to be a more accurate time keeper than the 649X watches. Why? Because of the Breguet coil. If I'm remember correctly it lessens the effects of isochronism. It may only amount to a difference of a few seconds a month or possible 30 seconds a week, but the brequet is know to be superior. That must be why there are some watches from 20k to 300k+ using Brequet coils instead of flat coils.

In defense of the flat coil, it's easier to fix and maintain. With the Brequet coil it's likely that you are going to have to put in a lot of time to get it just right (when you're doing a COA). The flat coil, simple as pie. If you can make a decent dogleg you're halfway there. The keyless works in both are good. The design in the 3602 is actually a bit better for the watchmaker. There's a post for the spring to keep it from being sucked into any nearby black holes.

As far as quality control goes part of the solution will probably involve better materials. They also need to be a little more proactive. Two years ago I called the heads of the two largest casemakers in Europe. Between them they make the cases for Omega, Tutima, Sinn, Hamilton, Breguet, Rado, IWC, Oris, Hueur, etc. I asked them both about making a case for a 3602. Neither of them had heard of that movement. The only one they did know was the Russian copy of the 7753 because of the scandal at Franck Mueller. Anyway, so tech, no specs means 20k-30k startup costs minimum. Molnia could have those types of materials, or a good deal of them, in the hands of those casemakers. Hey, it might help them sell more movements.

Well, the only one who's tried making a watch from the 3603 was a German company that had movements that looked like they had been made in China, not Germany. It was a fairly good knock-off, well they advertised it as real so maybe it was. Anyway it had that terrible faux striping and dyed screw heads. Oh, and surprise, they're using a flat spring now. Oh well.

Well, that was more than I started out to write but with the wall of text most won't read anyways. At least this has reignited my interest in the 360X series. I'm going start monitoring EBay.

Haha, I came across these while I was looking for serial numbers. Golly gee, I barely remember these, they 're about 12 years or maybe only 11. Oh well, I done worse to 6498s




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