Dear Learned Elders,

Can someone tell me the "proper way" of fixing this crack in a porcelain dial?

Well Paul, for one thing it's not a porcelain enamel dial you are dealing with. What you've got is a shrinkage crack in a melamine dial. The melamine has fractured and pulled apart, revealing the backing underneath. As time goes by the crack will get wider as the melamine continues to shrink, so filling it will only be a short-term fix.

There's really not much you can do about it long-term, except cleaning it up might make it look better. Do a search on "dial cleaning" and you will find lots of info on how to do this.

I use titanium dioxide pigment that artists use and can be found at hobby lobby and other places. The color is close and you can doctor the color with black or brown to better match. If you look close up you can still see the damage but it is not as glaring.

This is a big problem with Hamiltons, these melamine dials will age and crack and finally look so bad that parts of the dial start falling off. I tend to think that like other types of plastics sunlight (UV)causes the damage.

Ed and Claude, thanks for your feedback.

Ed, I am disheartened by your news that it is melamine and not porcelain, because I actually bought this watch from eBay with the hope it was porcelain…

I was under the impression that melamine dials were a single piece of melamine glued to a single metallic backing, whereas porcelain consisted of multiple pieces of enamel, glued to several pieces of metal soldered together. Also, circular indentations were sometimes pressed onto the melamine material to give the dial a “porcelain look”. The crack in this dial passes through the outer part of the dial only, indicating possibly a dial comprised of at least two pieces.

It seems that I missed the lesson “Porcelain/Melamine Dial Recognition 101”. Will you be so kind as to put me straight on this one, and explain a sure-shot way of distinguishing a porcelain from a melamine dial, just by looking at the watch face?

A further criterion for my thinking it was porcelain was the serial number which placed it around 1940. Bob McClelland (Post "Hamilton 992B - Porcelain/melamine dial switchover") said the first melamines appeared around 1946.

Paul,

If you have the dial off the watch, just flip it over. If is a double sunk dial you will see all three of the dials soldered together. Two solder rings.

The Melamine dial is black on the back.

You might find this interesting, and helpful

Hamilton 992, 992E, and 992B Case & Dial Identification. (1924-1971)

Regards,
Larry

Well I for one am not seeing any cracks or for that matter pictures of any dial to make any determinations as to what is being discussed

So why is the picture deleted

I believe you have a lot of misgivings or fallacies as to "glue" being used to secure dial materials such as porcelain & melamine to metal backings.

There are many study features that can be done on site to assess dials and how they were made.

As to Hamilton and their use of melamine here are some facts;

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This excerpt from 6-20-46 "Hamilton Minutes of Material Committee Meeting".

"Melamine enamel dials. Mr. Vermot commented favorably upon the appearance of 16 size Melamine enamel dials he had seen. Mr. Shubrooks stated that development work on the Melamine enamel dial project was still underway and that consequently present production cost were still higher than they would eventually be. Mr. Shubrooks indicated that a progress report on recent activities in the Melamine dial project would be available soon in the Library."

Melamine dials were discussed in each of the monthly meetings. They had to solve some problems with the quality of the transfer of numbering (the 5 and 7 did not look right) and bring the costs down. There was a Joint conference on the Melamine Enamel Dial on 10/10/46 This reported on the results of the first large experimental lot. They figured they would save $1.16 per dial. The Sales department had put in an order for 2000 dials. They were in the process of producing machinery for mass production. It was figured that they would need to produce 4000 per month. Of interest to us is the statement:

"Mr. R. B. Hershey raised a question regarding discoloration and deterioration of the enamel. It was explained that while the material was comparatively new (1939) it had served well in other applications. The results of laboratory tests for color fastness and deterioration were briefly sketched in answer to this question."

They discussed reasons for some of the dial rejects during production and how to increase the yield of dials passing inspection. They also discussed the need for a red paint on some of the dials and the supply of brass for the backs of the dials. The new drawing for the #50-121 (what we call the #121) dial would be finished Thursday. I have a copy of a later version of that dial. The first date on the drawing is 10/17/46.

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As to the backs of porcelain & melamine dials here is a picture of a porcelain double sunk [three separate pieces soldered together] on the LEFT

And the back of a melamine [one piece] on the RIGHT

Your last comment suggested that you bought a watch based on a serial number from 1940 and "hoped" it would be a porcelain dial. Dials over the past 73 years have been changed so many times that unless you know what you are looking at, nothing can be assumed, nor should it be.

regards,
bb

Yes, Buster, you are right. How DID the picture get deleted?

That is not the same picture that was up that Ed responded to????? Members use these old threads to learn from so we need to keep pictures correct to info experts give.

My 992 was in the timeframe for Melamine dials and the single sunk dial on it looked horrible on a watch that looked like it had little use. I was able to find a NOS double sunk Melamine dial to replace it at a decent price but I was lucky since usually a Melamine dial in good shape is and arm/leg cost. As Larry mentioned you are in a double edge sword situation, to be correct some years should have the Melamine dials but finding a good example of a Melamine dial is tough, some many get swap to porc dials if possible. If I see a crack on a 992B dial and there is some gap to it, automatically I think Melamine.

Reply to Robert Jones (10 Feb post):

Robert, you correctly spotted a difference in the original (first post of thread) and the one seen above your message.

As Buster Beck mentioned in his message above, the first image went "missing" for quite some time while this thread was being perused. I re-uploaded the image to compensate, and as I was on another computer, I had to re-cut the image from the original photo. The difference between the two images is only in the cropping.

If the first image will "stick" to this thread properly from now on, maybe Debbie could delete my second image.

Paul, I would be happy to assist with your pictures, however there is only the picture between Buster's post and Rob's post.
I monitor our site fairly closely and never saw your first picture.

Dear Claude (Feb 10),

I would be willing to trade my melamine dial for a porcelain dial with minor hairline cracks if you would need my dial...

I love the look of porcelain - it seems go "glow" under all light conditions. Melamine doesn't hold a candle to it.

Phillip,

I sent you a screenshot of the page as I see it, along with the original image at the top of this topic, to your gmail address, to enable you to view it.

The original image file extension was ".tiff". Maybe it is obnoxious to some web browers...

Paul, your 1st picture is there when using Internet explorer and not there when using the Firefox web browser.

Interesting!!

Phillip, I just replaced the .tiff with .jpg. Is that better?

That's very interesting about IE & Firefox

At any rate, the difference in price between melamine & porcelain 992B correct dials is -0-, they both will be close to the same price. I would recommend keeping the correct dials on the watches. If you have a like for the earlier porcelain dialed 992B's then simply sell or trade your later 992B movement for an earlier one.

You can put your movement up on our "wanted" board and offer to trade for an earlier version

Your picture of the dial that can now be seen, is a classic deeper & wider crack, that one can tell at a glance is melamine since melamine cracks & shrinks whereas porcelain cracks are not as pronounced and doesn't shrink and are much narrower. Also melamine has a condition called "checking" whereas those appear as if someone stuck a knifepoint into the dial and retracted it leaving what appears to be a small wound channel.

Also the "circular patterns" you mention are generally seen on the later crafted dials made by the likes of S.Larose. Those whirls are machine marks on some of the dies used to press/emboss/stamp the blanks down to simulate a double sunk dial on the metal blanks which are then "enamel" painted. These later crafted S.Larose & Swiss replacement dial are simply metal blanks that are enamel painted. They didn't use melamine in them. The main problem with the later replacement dials is the color fastness of the color red which fades terribly especially when exposed to sunlight.

After the S.Larose & Swiss replacements were "out of stock", some of the dial makers started offering enamel painted blanks which had no machined sink to them, another words they are simply "flat" across blanks that are enamel painted. Today these are even less desirable than the S.Larose offerings. Most of the "current" manufactured dials are flat blanks and without any sink to them. However , at least one seller who I usually refer to as "bonnie & clyde" , still offer the sunk pressed//embossed/stamped enamel painted RWS replacement dials. We accepted the S.Larose dials with open arms back in the 1980's as the melamine dials were beginning to deteriorate with age and that's all that we had to replace them. The "bad" of these dials is that somewhere "downstream" someone will be duped by these dials.

regards,
bb

One thing is for SURE. We are going to need replacement dials for the later 992B and other Hamiltons. I have had and still have well over 100 of them and they all with the exception of one or two need to be replaced. Some of them are so bad that the hands will catch on them and stop the watch from even running.

Regards,
Larry

I was never a fan of melamine dials. I'm sticking with earlier examples with porcelain dials. Regards, Brad

I have two perfect melamine dialed Hamiltons (992B and 950B) and one perfect enamel dialed 992B. Needless to say which one I carry, and which ones stay in my watch box?

Regards! Mark

Just a thought, has anyone contacted any of the dial refinishers to see how they would refinish one of these melamine dials?

Ed, From the people I have talked to, it is something that cannot be done. You have to completely strip the dial and just start over with the melamine. Which is a very lengthy process and something that very few, if any, people can do.

Regards,
Larry

I have posted about this before, but there is a guy on eBay that makes reproduction dials. Now purists will say that this is not the way to go, but I have a few of his dials that I use for my carry watches (usually paint on metal, pressed to look double sunk) and to the untrained eye (and the eye just looking to tell the time) it looks pretty good. He also makes new melamine dials and puts them for sale on eBay every now and then. The numbers look a bit rough as I think they are printed on. I will post a few pics of what they look like. I know that you can sometimes buy a nice porcelain or melamine dial for that much and I have bought some of those too for my collector watches, but the ones that I carry - that I don't want to worry about messing up a good melamine dial by exposing it to temp changes, or a nice porcelain dial that I might chip while trying to set the time - these reproduction dials are the way to go for me. You will see his dials on the bay from time to time. Like I said, if you look close you can see there is some pixelation of the ink, but when just trying to tell time I like these. This one is of a melamine dial I bought from one of his listings on the bay a few weeks back.

Dan

This is a close up ... you can see the pixelation of the paint / print ... but still ok for carry I think. If it were to go on to a for sale watch you need to let the buyer know that they are getting a 2012/2013 repro dial, not a 195x - 196x vintage dial ...

Dan, those look good for carry. Who is the seller?

Dan funny you posted a picture of one of his dials I was going through some of my stuff and I think I got one of his dials. is it alluminum looking on the back and lightweight? It looks like the ones I seen him list and really not a bad looking dial. I would use it on a carry watch. I looked up his dials and would post a link but this being a public thread we can't. Look up hamilton dial on Ebay and he usually sells them for around $49.99. THe one I have is for a 950B if anyone interested I could list it in the for sale section.

That is correct (I was in the midst of writing my post when I saw yours come up - was not sure about listing names and did not want this thread to go into the members only bin).
I usually just look up "Hamilton 992b Dial" and his stuff shows up, ~$50 plus shipping. He actually sold some melamine ones a few weeks back but usually sells the aluminum blank ones that you are talking about (I have a few of those as well). You can tell because it has the tell-tale record swirls in the middle. Still good for carry ... better I think since it is just metal and paint rather than melamine.

Dan let me have his name from ebay please.

Rob, the reason he uses the aluminum and not the melamine blanks, is because the paint will not stick to the brass as well as the aluminum.

He is using a very strong finish now that, after it cures for a week or so, it is VERY hard.

If you get one from him leave it in the cardboard box he ships it in. I put mine in the plastic dial holders only to find that the clear coat started to wrinkle as it was not fully cured yet.

Regards,
Larry

Hi all. I also uses a few of his dials for my daily carry watches. (Montgomery and Ferguson for 992B's). At a closer look they cannot be mistaken for the real thing, but very nice nevertheless. Furthermore I have scribed "Replica" at the back of them just to be sure.

Regards, Krister.