I will add to this and if I need additional pictures of the dials such as double sunk or single sunk versions, 16 or 18 size and Roman or Arabic numerals I will ask and you can send them to my profile email address.

Once we decide we are happy with the results we can have someone lock the thread. Please refrain from commenting in this thread but use this thread to comment Original Post

That way I can add and edit more easily!! I had a friend type up his insight and it is shown below, once the pictures and such are in I will end up taking this portion out.


Correlation of the Dials of the Elgin National Watch Company

The National Watch Company was organized in 1864 to be a mid-west competitor for the American Watch Company in Waltham, Mass. National produced its first watches in 1867. The dials used from the beginning will correctly read National Watch Co. and will usually be single sunk. From time to time, a double sunk NWCo dial will be seen, but as a collector of Elgin watches of over 33 years, long before the practice of dial switching became so commonplace and unfortunately, accepted, I can see no specific relation as to which watches got a DS dial, so I am left to make the hypothesis that a DS dial could be special ordered, but it was not a standard issue dial at the beginning of the company. I have DS NWCo dials on one B.W. Raymond and on a H. Z. Culver. I have other higher grade Elgin watches of the time, including an H. H. Taylor, which along with the two previously mentioned, comprised Elgin’s railroad grades, as indicated by several of the period trade journals as most of you have probably seen.

All this time, the name National never caught on with the public as did the town from which those watches originated. Most of the time, when one was asked the make of his watch, the response was typically ˜I have one of those watches from Elgin". Making the best of this public perception, National changed its name to Elgin National Watch Company on 12 May 1874. Afterward, the dials will read ENWCo. Using January 1875 as a changeover point, to give the factory time to use up the remaining dial inventory, according to the SN list, the new dials would begin at about SN 400,000. This is not to say if you have SN 456,789 with a NWCo dial that it is incorrect; a little variance and common sense must accordingly apply to a close SN, but if you have a watch in the millions, with a NWCo dial, it can't be right.

Dials now carried the ENWCo signature. This would be the dial to look for on watches of the company over the next 25 years or so. In 1899, C. H. Hulburd assumed the presidency of the company. He was the most popular president to ever sit at the helm, and although I have no documentation to confirm or deny this hypothesis, only 33 years of observation, this is the best guess I can put forth based on some definable change in the company either by charter or by management that could connect to a change in dial signatures. To be practical, the change from ENWCo to Elgin was probably based more on simplification as it was aesthetics. By now, production is standing at about 8 million. Even giving a full year for disposal of ENWCo dials, we will be sitting at 9 million, or about 1900 for full ascension of Elgin signed dials. So, in the end we have this theory, supported by several facts of the following signatures:

National Watch Company: 1867 through 1874, SN 101 through 400,000.

Elgin National Watch Company: 1875 through 1900, SN 400,000 through 9,000,000.

Elgin: 1901 through 1967, SN 9,000,000 through 55,000,000, domestic and foreign.

18 and 16 size watches will have different fonts at different times, so this will further complicate the issue. The biggest problem is the dial feet locations for all 18S full plate models are the same, and all 16S watches of all models are the same. You can put a 1960 dial on an 1890 16S watch, and it will fit. This is why you sometimes find a dura-power (dp) marked dial on a 1915 era watch, and why you can find that National Watch company dial on a 1925 era watch. As stated before, a little variance on the serial numbers is likely, remember, some watches stayed at the factory much longer than others for adjustment. But in this day of switching hysteria, it is important to know what is correct, as opposed to what is expedient. The attached photographs will annotate the SN and grade of watch that that particular dial was seen on. As all of these have been in collections for over 25 years, they can be assumed as original to the era of the watches, if not to the watches themselves.

C. N. Lloyd

Here is an early 18 size Elgin dial when the script was "National Watch Co."



This is single sunk dial with Roman numerals and a double track minute marking.

Here is an example of the middle 18 size "Elgin National Watch co" from a GM Wheeler with the serial number 165,xxx which looks to be original. This is a single sunk dial with Roman numbers with the double track outer minute marking.



Here is a double sunk version of the dial above that was found on a BW Raymond with the serial number 335,xxx.

Here is a more stylish "Elgin National Watch Co." in a double sunk Roman numeral version.



Here is the same font style but in a Arabic numerals with red minute markers.

Here is a bit more rare font style of the "Elgin National Watch Co." It is from an 18 size 20 jewel grade 150 which would have been within the first 500 or so of this grade, the rest of the grade 150 first run were 21 jewels.