I have had a Hamilton 974 Special for a few years and finally got around to fixing the mainspring. It is a 1934 s/n 2551084.

It appears to be a mess although the dial and hands are in excellent condition the dial at least is the wrong dial. It is a double sunk script signature dial. The hands are the thin spade hands.

I don't know anything about the 974 special. I have block script Hamilton SS and DS dials in Montgomery DS and regular DS and also SS dials. Would any of these be on the 974 special?

Are the thin spade hands alright?

Harry, one of the dials that went on these were Electric-Interurban Special. I had posted an auction over in Pitfalls for an all original example. Take a look. Brad

This one closed at 565 and change. Roger

Harry I have a very nice dial for this 974 SS HA almost mint condition and also the hands for it.I think they are diamond hands.I took these off of a thrashed movt. If interested hit me up. Regards Roger

Our buddy Ed Parsons bought it.

Nice buy Ed.

Yes that is a nice one Brad. I know they came with special dials. But to be honest I'm not going to spend that kind of money to get a dial. I would love to have one. I know they came with the Traffic Special, Trolly Car, Electric Interurban, and Electric Railway. But unless I just luck up and get one I am not going to go search for one and pay a premium price for one. So what I want to know did the 974 Special come with just a regular dial and if so was it SS as the regular 974 or did it come with a regular DS Montgomery or any other style of dial like the Roman Numeral with block signature.

Hi Roger I will email you to see what you have. Thanks

I do not believe Hamilton put DS dials on 17jewel watches unless special ordered. Most all were SS or metal dials.
This is the one I picked up about 2 weeks ago. A very nice running watch in what I believe is the original configuration.

Thank you Ed. I did not think the 974 Special came with a DS dial but since it was a special I did not know.

Hi Ed, I did a little research here on the site and found an old article where they showed a reference to an old Hamilton sales page that showed the 972 came with DS dials. I have two complete watches that both have DS dials. I have the one I pieced together that you gave me the ratchet wheel for that had a SS dial on it. According to the sales page it should have a DS dial Of course this watch is so old (1898) s/n 62776 that maybe they had SS dials back then... who knows. I also have a 978 with a DS dial. I have found several photos on this site where members are showing there 978 with DS dials. So I do not believe all 17 jewel Hamilton's came with SS dials but I do believe all 974's came with SS dials.

Harry,
By 1934 Hamilton 16 size dials would be signed in block letters which started about 1918. Any dial signed in script would be incorrect for your movement. Many of the Hamilton advertisements state the availability of other dials. If you post pictures of what dials you have it would be easier to determine the likeliness of their correctness. As to the SS vs. DS the norm would be SS but DS dials cannot be ruled out.

Ed K.,
That’s a nice looking Traffic Special. I’m wondering if that’s the silver dial that was available on the other Traffic Special that look like the model 16 case shown below.
RR

Here’s a boxed example of the 974 with a DS CPR dial. Picture found on an earlier post here.

Hello Richard here is the photo of what I have that will fit this 974 Special.

The 4 in the top row are DS. The 5 in the center row are SS and Metal. The one by itself in the third row is the 974 Special with the wrong dial.

The hands are also what was on the movement which I am guessing is wrong also.

Dials
The 1st one in the second row is a cracking melamine Railway Special which is to old for the movement.

The 974's were the lower end of Hamilton's 17 jewel offerings. I guess I was thinking of them when I wrote the above statement. You might be correct on the other two models.
It all boils down to, "never say never and never say forever"

Richard that is the first Hamilton Traffic Special with a correct case that I have seen. Those darn boxes are proving themselves again!

Both of your watches are very nice. I would like to get this one close to those conditions although it will not be the same as it will be pieced together to look correct even though it will not be built and cased from the factory.

I have a few 974 Special movements, one that I cased in a Hamilton marked case with an Electric Railway dial and the other that comes with the clamshell box and papers. Looks to be original based on the books and articles I have read. It has a metal dial. This is a link to the original post (Hamilton 974 Special).


Dan

Perfect. Thank you Dan. Your boxed 974 Special has the same dial as Edward above. I have that dial (last one in the middle row) above. You also answered my question with that photo. I have a set of those open diamond hands. My dial needs to go to International dial to be re-done.

As for the ERS dial on your other watch my watch is to new to use that watch. In all my searching I ran across someone who said that Hampden had sued Hamilton over the use of the word Railway Special and had won so Hamilton had to stop using that dial I think in 1928 (if memory serves me right).

Thank you for the link to your old post. I guess I still don't have the search function down because I did not see this link when I searched Hamilton 974 Special. I did find a lot of other information but not what I needed. I searched the Hamilton library also and found some info but not what I needed. Thanks a million Dan.

To add to the confusion I came across some other interesting information. How about a HG dial on the Traffic Special? The illustration below is the first time I've noticed that seconds hand in Hamilton advertising. Advertisements aren't always correct but it makes you wonder.

A page from Hamilton Timekeeper 1931-1933

Harry,
According to the Gelson List your watch is from 1937-1938. About 1935 Hamilton advertisements stopped showing the case and dial like Ed's watch above and started showing the case like the boxed example above. When this change occurred the dials in the advertisements also changed from the metal dial to the SS HA porcelain enamel. The illustration below in the last sentence states, "Also available with selection of silver or porcelain enamel dials." so we know a silver dial was available at the time your watch was made. The metal dial on the far right of the second row is probably correct but I'm not sure because other metal dial variants show up on later 974 movements.

Most likely there was a charge for the other available dials hence not many DS dials show up on the 974. From the boxed example above and the illustration with the HG dial it's reasonable to believe the watch could be ordered with any dial available at the time. To that end the BMN dials on the right and left of the first row in your picture were available when the movement was made. The Roman Numeral dial can also be considered, there's even one fronting a 974 on e-bay right now with a serial number close to yours.

In conclusion the metal dial you have is the least argumentative of what you have available for your movement and may in fact be correct. Although you don't have a SS HA dial it's non-argumentative for your 974.

1938 Hamilton Catalog

Harry,
Glad to help. I have trouble with the search function as well. But sometimes it helps to repost things. I was impressed with Richard's boxed 974 special. I am thinking I might recase my ERS dialed 974 into one of the gold filled cases like he shows here. I have one or two that I actually have 992Bs in (the case looks similar to Model 16 Case but I think the Model 16 is Gold Plated rather than Gold Filled - something like that).

Dan

Dan,

Those are nice watches in the link you posted. The boxed 974 set is not mine I just found the picture here. The Model 16 case is stamped gold rolled and the Traffic Specials are stamped gold filled. The case screw marks are different for a 992B than for a 974 so if you recase it the screw marks won't line up.

Harry,

The dial on Dan's watch is the other metel dial I'm referring to seeing on later 974 examples and why I wasn't sure the metal dial you have is correct for your movement. Dan's dial is different from Ed's, Yours, and the ones in the illustrations.

Dan,

After seeing your boxed example I looked up the year and it's 1929. Now I'm wondering if both silver metal dials were available at the same time. The dials look similar except for the numerals.

Thanks!
The dial I have looks like the same pattern as a 912 Garfield ( Look in the bottom left). The numbers and pattern look the same and it is a No 96 dial. The catalog shot I used said that the 974S could have dials 16-97 without any charge. I had 2 dials like this one, one more petinaed than the other but I think the numbers were the same (have to go find it).

I know the 912 is a 12S movement, I just wonder if they reused dial patterns for different size watches.

By the way, the engraving was June 1930 on the boxed watch and the pics I pulled were from a 1932 catalog.

Dan,
I'm now looking in the Hamilton Watch Co. ID and price guide by Roy Ehrhardt. At the top of page 38 A.C. Becken-1930 is printed. It is showing a Traffic Special and states, available with any of the railroad dials shown above without extra charge. The above dials are the BM, HG, and HA N. shown on 992s. Underneath is printed Dial No. 16-97. No Extra Charge. Perhaps the 16 is referring to a size 16 and 97 is the pattern.

Here's page 38.

And a close up of the Traffic Special.

Harry,
Dare I say GO BIG. The BM dial sure does look better the more research we do.
RR

Richard,
I agree with you. That is one of my favorites. Clean, readable, presentable, and not distracting.
I am still curious what "16-97" really means (that was one of the reasons for my original post back in January). I like your explanation though. I was hoping to find the info on the dials in the Hamilton Parts catalog, but gave up.

Harry,
Sounds like you have a lot of options here! We are looking forward to some pics of yours to add to the collection
Dan

I read the add as the dial on the watch in the pic as being the 16-97. Maybe that is how Hamilton distinguished between the metal and porcelain dials.

Thank you Ed, Dan and Richard for spending so much time on this with me. IT certainty is appreciated!

The silver dial I have that is like Ed's is on a Hamilton 974 movement s/n 2451165 which is prior to the 974 Special. So if the dial is original to the movement that puts it in the ball park as an older dial and not necessarily a newer dial than my 974 Special.

I do like the BM dial but here is where I want to be careful. You state the Gelson List states my movement is a 1937 - 1938? The Price Guide says it is a late 1934? That is quit a difference. I don't have the Gelson List but I think I have seen it on the site when exploring this site (I could be wrong it was a while back). So how do you know which one to go by and why so big a difference?

If this is indeed a 1937 - 1938 then yes I would love to use the BM but if this is a 1934 I don't think the BM would be appropriate since it is prior to 1935.

That also brings up a point about the hands. If this is a 1934 and I were to use the metal silver dial I have a set of open diamond hands to go with it. Would these hands work if this is a 1937 - 1938 model? I don't think they would go with the BM dial and if they would not I could use the hands above that are on the BG dial or would another style of hands be more appropriate?

So you see I need to find out more about the Gelson List and find out which is more correct The Gelson List or The Price guide. Then I will worry about the case. I may never put this in the proper case but I do at least want the movement correct no matter which case I put it in.

Richard you are right this is Clear As Mud!

Harry,
The link below explains why Mr. Gelson’s List is more accurate than the Guide.

Hamilton Movement Number Listings Preserved by John F. Gelson

It also provides a link to the movement numbers in the first post by Lindell.
The correct hands for the BM dial are illustrated above on the RR Model 2, 5, or 6.
RR