I know where I can purchase a 23 J Sangamo Special that has a white G.f. hinged Sangamo case. The problem is....it has a painted dial that is in very poor condition. Can anyone advise a "good deal" price for this watch and also, why would there be a painted dial on such a watch? Are they common? Were these Railroad certified? Would it be okay to replace the dial with a procelen dial? Lots of questions but this watch confuses me. Many thanks for your help.
Sam

Some of the 17sz Sangamo Came with a painted dial. If you post the serial # I'm sure We could tell you if this was original to the watch.
I believe that the 17sz was the only size that had a Marked case.
It is defiantly worth buying. As I like any thing in white gold. Even though it is gold filled.

I'm replying at 2.00 in the morning so please forgive me if I'm not sharp as a tack.

Thank you Eugene, I will try to get the serial number from the seller if I can. Would it hurt the watch to change the dial? Can you advise what it would be worth? Thanks Sam

While I believe that these dials were "either/ or", here is what is known about metal dials on the Sangamo Specials;

From 1920 -1925 the 16sz Model 10's marked "Temp. and Six Positions", could have either a glass enamel or non-tarnishable silvered metal dial with heavy Arabic numerals. Generally speaking they will be from serial no. ranges of 3,178,901-3,611,000.

Then from 1920-1926 the 17sz with "Motor Barrel" in models 10 and 13 in serial no. ranges of 3,693,001-4,737,000 "could" have this same metal dial.

Then from 1926-1927 the 17sz with "Motor Barrel Sixty Hour" in model 13 in serial no. ranges of 4,758,001-4,761,000 "may" have a silver dial with Butler finished center.

While dials are a controversial subject to us, I will say it is somewhat possible to define what dial is most appropriate for a particular period as well as a particular grade. It will always be based on actual advertisements for the grade in question at the time of production and where correct dial information has been provided.

Therefore it should represent the most likely dial for that watch at the time they were originally sold. Today one wants his watch to be the way it left the factory or the jeweler's store.

This information [above] can be found in the Vol 2 Blue Book encyclopedia.

regards,
bb

Thank you Buster....I enjoy your comments and good research info. The dial is in such bad condition....would you have it refinished?

Sam

Thank you Sam, we all appreciate compliments !

I would not have it refinished unless it is a 17sz. If it is a 17sz and I could have it refinished exactly as factory specs, then I would have it refinished if the cost was under say $75. That cost could be recouped but not expanded and would help if and when it is traded.

regards,
bb

Okay....Buster, I have the serial number off the watch....it is 4,556,568 Can you advise me what this one is? 16s or 17s and should it have the "butler finished center" ? Thanks...Sam

According to the Illinois Blue Book Vol 2

It is a 23Jewel Sangamo Special from 1925

The mvmt is a 17sz, Model 13, ON13L T6PI

There were 9,000 made like yours, BUT...

It may have a 16 sz dial on it, as it could
have been changed over the years.

It would be correct with either/or a 17sz
DS Gothic Enamel dial or a nontarnishable
silvered metal dial.

When you get it, you will need to take the
dial off and check to see if all the feet
are present. If so then you can compare it
with a standard 16sz Illinois dial and see
if it is the same circumference, or if it's
slightly larger, if so, we will think it is
a 17sz dial.

I believe a 16sz dial will fit your mvmt, the
way we usually tell if a 17sz mvmt has a 16sz
dial is that the dial will be slightly
smaller than the pillar plate. The 17sz mvmts
had just a bit larger pillar plate than the
16sz mvmts. I have even found a 17sz Sangamo
Special dial on a 16sz mvmt, and in order to
make it fit the 16sz mvmt someone had
removed one of the feet !!

I hope that all makes perfect sense to you??
One can never be certain without looking at
some or all of these things. 85 years later
we find a lot of times the 17sz mvmts will
have had the dial changed to a more common
16sz dial because 17sz dials were/are hard
to come by.

If someone can give better info, then it will
be appreciated here. That's about all that
my small brain can tell you. We do have many
knowledgeable Illinois people on this site
that can add to my nominal start that should
point you in the right direction. And feel
free to correct me if I am short of the mark
as I only have a working knowledge and am no
ace on these.

regards,
bb

Many thanks for the information Buster, now I will see if I can negotiate a reasonable price for it. I hope to add it to my collection by the end of next week. If I am successful in purchasing it, I will post a photo here for all to see. If they made 6000 of them I guess it wouldn't be too rare although I have never seen one with a painted dial before. I find it difficult to believe that a railroad company would allow or certify this watch with the painted dial. Maybe someone out there can fill me in on this thought. Also, would like to hear if anyone else has one with the painted dial too, in the 23 jewel Sangamo Special.

Here are pictures of what these dials look like.

Also RR companies accepted the metal dials. They were easier to read than enamel dials. They also added about $2.50 to the cost over and above the costs of enamel dials

regards,
bb

Picture 1;

Here is a clip from an Illinois Parts Catalogue from 1930 where the metal butler finish dials as well as the DS Enamel Montgomery were available and pictured

Picture 2;

Interesting....I really don't find any oddness of the inner circle of the pictured butler dial yet the seller advised me that there were horizonal lines in the center of the dial on his watch. Maybe the butler carried the watch That has to be the answer! Now it all makes sence. But I'm suprised to find that the railroad accepted the painted dials....good to know.

Sam;

The 17S Sangamo Special is a good watch, here's a couple guidelines for you:

1. Metal dials are correct for this watch, as Buster says, if your seller is telling you there are horizontal lines in the center that could very well be a later LaRose replacement dial. If that's the case the dial will kill any real value on it. No one wants a reproduction dial on his watch, especially one this nice.

2. It may be a 16S dial on the watch which is definitely wrong. This was an issue with this watch, as a 16S dial will fit right on and line up. People years ago I'm sure replaced their cracked or damaged 17S dial with a 16s and thought nothing of it. I can't tell you how many 16s dials on these I've seen over the years, but it's been more than a few. (including one I bought then later discovered it was wrong) I've seen sellers who didn't even know the dial was wrong. The easiest way to tell is take the bezel off and look at the circumference of the dial in relation to the case. If there is a gap between the dial edge and the case it's a 16S dial. The correct 17S dial will go all the way to the case rim with no gap. It's easy to see.

3. Metal dials, even the correct one, will hurt the value of the watch as compared to the porcelain one, some by hundreds of dollars. If you like the look of the metal dial and it's correct and fairly priced, nothing wrong with that.

4. 17S dials for these are hard to locate, and if you find a nice one could likely cost $300+ just for the dial alone. If you find out the dial is the wrong size, unless the watch is dirt cheap and has a real nice case I would keep looking and find a correct one. They're out there.

5. VALUE: You should be able to find a nice one (nice case, dial and movement) in the 1000-1200 range. All these Model 13s (from about 4,5xx,xxx on) including yours had a sixty hour movement not marked. The ones marked "sixty hour" on the movement are very valuable (3500-4500) and I'm assuming we're not talking about these. For a nice correct metal dial example with a nice case I'd say 800-1000. Don't short change yourself trying to save a few bucks and settle for a lesser than example as once the case gets sloppy and worn the watch loses much of it's value. There's 700-800 ones out there with sloppy cases and cracked dials, but why pay that much for a worn out watch? Pay the 300-400 extra and get a nice one (unless you get lucky and get one for less money). One last thing, most of these porcelain dial examples you'll find may have a hairline or two. Ones with a perfect dial are few and far between. If you find a real clean one with one or two hairlines I wouldn't let that stop me if the rest of the watch is nice. Stay away from any extreme damage or repaired dials of course.

6.THE CASE Look for wear on the bow and the sides. If it has extreme wear move on. Check the hinges. They should be nice and tight and snap shut securely. One thing I've noticed is the dust cover will sometimes be a little loose even though the other hinges are fine. If it looks ok that should be fine. If you find one with a tight dust cover it's a good bet the rest of the watch will be nice as this was a weak spot. Also check the lettering on the dust cover! It should be nice and clear, a little wear is fine but not excessive. You do NOT want to polish the dust cover because with too much polishing it will remove the lettering. I've seen more than one watch "lovingly" overpolished by the previous owner to the point that the dust cover lettering was nearly unreadable. This of course hurts it as well.

This is what I've learned in 16 years of dealing with this particular watch, which happens to be one of my all time favorites. I have a dozen more or less in my own collection. If you have any more ?? don't hesitate to ask. That's what we're here for.

Tom sounds like the man with great information

I might add that "butler finish" means a different appearance OR texture, and not necessarily "lines". I cannot recall any Sangamo Specials with the lines in the dial as you describe Sam.

NOTE; [Extremely Important Information Below]

In an ad I found from 1908, this may open some eyes as to metal dials Perhaps that old turn of the century Waltham you have, that you thought was surely a replacement dial of metal, is in fact an original combination Enjoy

regards,
bb

More great information Tom and Buster, now I can't wait to get a close look at this watch. If I purchase it, I will post a photo.

Regards,

Sam

Okay....here's a couple photo's of the watch. I'm sure the dial is correct to the watch as is the case.

The dial shows vertical "brush" lines in the center.

I was all set to buy this watch as the case, movement and dial really are not to bad....but when I moved the strap over here is what I found!

Askin price of $700.00 but the bow is just too worn! When I pointed this out...the price went to $600.00 I pass...if anyone out there is interested let me know. I guess you could have a piece welded between the worn area and it would be better. Any suggestions?

The bow can be cast from a like example and the old bow can be cut off and the new one laser welded in place. Then it will need to be plated.

All of that will not be cheap. I would estimate between $300-400. The dial I would leave as is, I have seen much worse.

And change that seconds hand

regards,
bb

I did not purchase the watch as I stated above in the 2nd photo comment. I think a person could get by with just replacing the top part of the bow, cut it off and relplace it....not sure if it could be plated while on the case though. Anyway, its available for $600.00 if anyone wants it. Thanks again for all the comments!

Regards, Sam