I don't mean to pester you with so many questions recently, but here are two which I've been meaning to ask:

1. The same pocket watch carried-on, compared to sitting on a bench. Is it true the carry-on will always run faster, and what makes it do so?

2. Those engraved markings on the movement "Adjusted Temperature, 5 Positions, 9 Positions, etc", are only meaningful for a brand new watch from the factory, and lose their meaning after COA, and especially after so many years (our antique watches). Can we say they have any meaning today?

Thanks a lot guys, this forum rocks.

The adjusted markings indicate the quality of the watch when it was produced. Any adjustments made after that would certainly negate the markings but not the overall quality of the timepiece. The watch can be readjusted to those criteria after being serviced but it is a very painstaking process.

Hi Paul,

I'm willing to bet you will get as many answers to these questions as you have people to reply.

I'm interested to hear what the club elders have to say here myself.

Pault

quote:

1. The same pocket watch carried-on, compared to sitting on a bench. Is it true the carry-on will always run faster, and what makes it do so?

That depends...
1. Is the watch clean, oil'd and in good repair with a modern balance? Then the answer is no it will not matter in temperatures that a person is comfortable in.
2. Is the watch dirty and in need of a coa? Yes its possible there will be flucuations as the temp of the body may help it a little in overcoming lack of maintenance. But a watch in this condition will only get worse
3. If the watch is real old and has a solid balance it may not adjust to temperature very well and this will cause differences if the room temp is cold.

quote:

2. Those engraved markings on the movement "Adjusted Temperature, 5 Positions, 9 Positions, etc", are only meaningful for a brand new watch from the factory, and lose their meaning after COA, and especially after so many years (our antique watches). Can we say they have any meaning today?

I agree with Donald above. It shows the quality of the watch, and with the work of a good watchmaker the watch can achieve the same time keeping at all the different positions.

Thanks, Jim, for addressing both questions.

I see from your first reply that the fast/slow is independent of motion (whipping action of the watch in the pocket during walking, etc), but is far more dependent on TEMPERATURE (cold on bench, warm in pocket).

Therefore, Jim, please confirm my understanding of the basic principle: The colder the temperature, the more sluggish (slower) the movement due to increased viscosity of the lubricants at the axle joints?

There is a feature on IHC on the main page of IHC Forums before a particular choice is made. On the left side at the top are 4 selections in blue, GO/New Topic/Find-Or-Search/Tools. Click on the Find-Or-Search tab and enter your question[s]. Keep it short & simple and learn to use this function well. There most of your questions will be answered and you can spend hours researching.

Your 1st question is False. It is a hypothetical question and depends on so many things, activity, temperature, maintenance, and positional error.

The answer to your 2nd question is yes, positions have meaning today. It means a particular watch was guaranteed when it left the factory to keep time according to factory specifications in positions of carry.

American watches are adjusted to 3-4-5- or 6 positions and no more. You have confused another term "adjustments" with "positions". Once adjusted at the factory, timed to positional errors, it may or may not remain there depending on the watches maintenance and service. With so many non qualified jake leg repairmen handling a watch over a period of years, and wear to parts, it probably will never be adjusted to positions/specifications as well as when it left the factory. It has now been approximately 40+ years since these old watches have had to "live up" to their factory settings and those old repairmen are mostly gone by now or retired.

Unless a person finds a watchman today or specifies that a watch given to them for maintenance be returned and conforming to factory tolerances/specifications, it is doubtful that it can or will be done. With wear to parts and non qualified attempts to service a watch over its lifetime or no service a lot of watches will do well to maintain time in one or two positions.

You have to understand that around 1970 the vast majority [90% or more] of the RR watches were either traded in for a newly allowed wrist watch or they were laid to rest in the bottom of a nightstand drawer or jewelery box where they weren't maintained and like any machine, that is one of the worst things, to allow a machine to sit idle for years at a time. These watches today work their way back into the mainstream/selling markets and we are thrilled to see them and especially if they are looking sharp and running well.

If a watch hasn't been abused/jerry rigged before all of this time that it sit idle, and the watchman is careful to take it apart without damaging jewels & pivots, cleans it well and thoroughly, lubricates with the new synthetic oils instead of the old 1940's animal oils, and is truly qualified, then it can come close to the factory set positions once again.

If you do request a qualified repairman to return a watch to you today and for it to confirm to factory specifications, be prepared to pay for "time" to time that watch back to its stated "positions". And even then it may or may not be possible depending on the condition of it's parts and/or availability of NOS factory parts.

I have been using repairmen for 40 years to service my watches and have had two of the oldtimers to tell me upfront that if I wanted a "fancy-smancy" watch to conform to factory specs, then there will be a $100 charge added on to their usual fee for a COA. That would be for the additional time required to strike a happy medium in the timing/positional errors of a watch.

"Adjustments" refers to heat/cold/isochronism/ and stated positions, [face-up, face-down, pendant up, pendant right, pendant left, and pendant down].

Modern synthetic oils have much better viscosity in all of the normal temperature ranges than animal oils and depending on your watches balance [solid or split bi-metallic] temperature shouldn't be a factor in slowing a mechanical watch today that is serviced.

Remember that these old watches are antiques, treasures, collectables, heirlooms, and keepsakes. They served their time and did it well back in the day. Today they aren't exacting as they once were. Times have changed and unless one is eccentric or nostalgic, get you one of them there modern quartz watches or portable communication devices to "time them all"

regards,
bb

If you do a search of posts by one of our watchmakers Chris Abell, one is titled "Ham 975 running like new".

In that thread, he discusses experimenting with a 1903 Hamilton 17J 975 to see if he could adjust it out in all 5 positions and see if he could make it hold railroad spec. He was successful, and it kept time perfectly.

He posted photos of the watch in all postions on his timing machine.

Shortly after posting that thread and discussion, I was able to acquire the watch from Chris, and own it to this day.

It continues to hold railroad time, requiring me to set the time only when I allow it to run down. It's in my current rotation, and after running for 3 weeks non-stop this round, it's still dead on with my atomic clock. No variance at all.

Is it feasible to expect this from all these old watches? Heavens no, and you'd be crazy to expect it. Too many variables to even consider....but when all the stars are in alignment and the Gods of watchmakers are smiling, yes, it IS possible, and I am lucky enough to own an example.

Like Buster said, though, it takes time and patience of a competent watchmaker to produce such results, and time is money. This Hamilton may be more of the exception to the rule than the rule itself, but it's just food for thought that there's the oft chance you can get one of these old workhorses to perform perfectly, or as close to perfection as a complicated piece of minature macnhinery can produce.

Regards! Mark

Hamilton says:

and goes on to say:

For which the "learned" watch service person may want to refer to these "notes":
Note that Hamilton describes "accuracy" correctly as mean deviation. A very, very important point when discussing watch accuracy and adjustments!

Great post and information guys.

I use the Hamilton Regulation chart all thr time when timing watches that have Mean time screws, in general though, I have better results manipulating balance weights for deviations that exceed 2 minutes a day (5 sec/hour)and then "fine tune" the timing with mean time screws or micro-regulator.

David, do you know where I can download more of these fascinating Hamilton Technical Data brochures?

Paul, We have a large amount of Hamilton stuff in our "Hamilton and 992B" section of our Research Forum;
https://ihc185.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/frm/f/254108073