Last week I picked up a earlier Ham 975 what caught my interest was it was completely solid with thick green grease everywhere I mean everywhere never seen one so packed with grease even the hairspring was clogged solid hard. I stripped and after numerous operations removed the grease, as I thought it had escaped abuse and hacking all those years its been used for a while until someone packed it full of grease and left it well alone, very little wear to be found, of course some rust spots you can see in the ratchet wheel I am sure I could find a replacement to finish this off. It came with a PL I may put back on if this dial is considered incorrect. Well I decided to put sometime in for fun on the timing side see how well these old watches could have ran “back in the day” and it came out great as you can see not bad for a 1903 975.
Very nice job Chris and I think pretty much answers the question about what one should expect in the way of accuracy from a non railroad grade watch .....in five positions none the less. Modern electronics (technology) makes easier work of timing a watch.
Regards, John
Posts: 299 | Location: Mount Brydges, Ontario, Canada | Registered: November 10, 2005
Excellent watch Chris. Anyone would be proud to own that one!
Just to help explain what Chris is talking about on the green grease, here is a pic of an 18s 21j South Bend I recently aquired. It is everywhere and took me about 4 hours of soaked, scrubbing, cleaning, etc. to get it removed. To say the least, the final watch is fine, but still a pain.
BTW that is a Alloy spring under there too...
Jared
Posts: 1626 | Location: North Dakota in the USA | Registered: December 09, 2009
Jared that’s the goo, the only thing I can figure that someone must have poured a heavy oil in attempting to fix it then realizing what he had done slipped it in a draw to be forgot about, should of taken a photo, it was all over the gear train balance a solid mass, as I say wonderful to see literally preserved I get customers telling me that there 23j xyz will be a great timekeeper once serviced, that’s why they invested in a 21j/23J after reading all about the jewels and RR standards etc. I have to tell them that there is no guarantee at all how well it will run until I start taking it apart and see what damage from past “repairs” & lack of service, use and abuse has gone on, watches can apparently survive hundreds of years in good running order if looked after. I have had over the year some 0 size 7j watches run near perfect timekeepers, you never can tell and have to adjust out as much as possible with what you are given to work with. As all these watches are now old with history, jewel count means little, it gave them a better chance to survive in good order.
and one that will be appreciated by the layman who still wears pocket watches, but alas, one that I think will be lost on many of the collectors because jewel count means so much to them....
Thanks for your work and insights....
Regards,
Jerry
Posts: 2828 | Location: California in the USA | Registered: June 23, 2008
I would agree with you on the oil part. I just tore down a nice 18s Elgin Father time that looks to have been soaked in a jar of 3 in 1 household oil to try to get it running. Everything was drenched in it and as always collected in the tight spots and the hairspring was solid with it. This was done recently too as the main amounts oil were able to be removed with a dabbing of a paper towel before typical cleaning. I just cannot stress to enough people that soaking a pocket watch in 3 in 1 oil will not fix broken mainsprings or balance jewels either (the real reason that the Father Time wasn't running)
Posts: 1626 | Location: North Dakota in the USA | Registered: December 09, 2009
By 1900 many RR company inspectors used the following guidelines for RR watches put into new service;
"Be open faced, size 18 or 16, have a minimum of 17 jewels, adjusted to at least 5 positions, keep time accurately to within a gain or loss of only 30 seconds a week, adjusted to temperatures of 34 to 100 degrees Fahrenheit, have a double roller, steel escape wheel, lever set, micro metric regulator, winding stem at 12 o'clock, grade on back plate, use plain Arabic numbers printed bold and black on a white dial, and have bold black hands."
Since this is not a RR watch in 1903, the requirements would vary from factory to factory as to the tests that it would be required to adhere to. Perhaps the requirements may be found in early period ads from that era as that would be one of the selling points of the various watches, to be able to go one up on the competition..
This is a very nice watch with the Brequet numeral dial and the Old English Hamilton signature.
regards, bb
Posts: 6376 | Location: Texas in the USA | Registered: July 27, 2009
Its of course possible to check for timing over a range of temperatures and adjust within the limitations of the 50-100 year old worn watch could be, but who would write the check to do so for such little gain, I expect if someone had the time to do it for fun, this watch would give good results not having as much wear as most. Again we also have to consider that the majority of pocket watches today spend most time sitting at air conditioned room temperatures, the few that are still carried and enjoyed are kept in a pocket and exposed to the same comfortable environment the owner enjoys. If a watch was truly needed to be used in extremes of temperature the odds are it would be either one or the other and oils would be chosen for the environment the last thing I would start with is a antique pocket watch for the task. and also before looking at temp adjustments, isochronism need to be tested and corrected. What is amazing is how they made the watches in the first place could you imagine today getting a team together to make a watch from scratch , and telling them “by the way its pen and paper only! And old tooling poor lights also has to be made affordable to most people and high quality control. In reality this morning I started a high jeweled RR watch (value around $700), as I stripped it, noted the dial damaged and chunks ready to fall out, lifted the balance noted a hack had changed the balance staff didn’t adjust it correctly, cracked the lower jewel screwing the balance cock down and forcing the overly long staff into the jewel so he gouged the plates up to lift the balance which by the way has a huge wobble on it. I removed the train bridge to find washers jammed under it to increase end shake from where he for some reason hammered the jewel setting home a little more I can see the divots, and so on, these are the typical watches that are left and all this needs reversing as much possible to get it to run in a reasonable manner, may never run well again, I would love to replace all those parts with new, 100 years ago in this condition no doubt would have just ordered a complete movement and told the customer never take it back to the last again!. I am now on a Rolex president and find oil running out of the recently service watch.
Buster, so this dial is correct? as I say its one I had and fitted as a alternative to the PL it came with?
In reality this morning I started a high jeweled RR watch (value around $700), as I stripped it, noted the dial damaged and chunks ready top fall out, lifted the balance noted a hack had changed the balance staff didn’t adjust it correctly, cracked the lower jewel screwing the balance cock down and forcing the overly long staff into the jewel so he gouged the plates up to lift the balance which by the way has a huge wobble on it. I removed the train bridge to find washers jammed under it to increase end shake from where he for some reason hammered the jewel setting home a little more I can see the divots, and so on, these are the typical watches that are left and all this needs reversing as possible to get it to run in a reasonable manner, may never run well again, I would love to replace all those parts with new, 100 years ago in this condition no doubt would have just ordered a complete movement and told the customer never take it back to the last again!. I am now on a Rolex president and find oil running out of the recently service watch.
This is what I am referring to when I say buying high jewel watches is no guarantee at all that you will be able to get a good accurate watch out of it, this one is 23J a wonderful watch when new, one hack later almost trash! , it now all about the history of the watch re its use and abuse over the years, and value never stops the damage either, everybody want the cheapest job possible at any cost..
Time to get off my soap box, Its just frustrating when you see this daily
The short answer to your question Mark is that yes I have tried and I can assure you it is no fun and it certainly was not over the range of 34 to 100 degrees F. New old stock split bimetallic balances make it possible but using what comes with a watch that is 100 years old and you don't know it's service life is a roll of the dice. All I can liken it to is a bimetallic thermostat switch arm and they are only specified to last a certain amount of cycles. The old timers must have had an apreciation for this because of the advent of Invar and solid balance wheels. Invar is obviuosly more stable than what was being used in bimetallic escapements and steel hairsprings. As Chris points out many of these 100+year old watches are serviced and then kept in climate controlled enviroments. As to Isochronism I believe again there are many variables. A new old stock mainspring that has been sitting in storage for 80 years doesn't sound like a good bet and a new alloy mainspring certainly might not have the same characteristics that were on the design paper 100 years ago. An attempt at resolving this problem is the wind indicator found on some of the more expensive RR grade watches and they seem to suggest that about 70% is as far as you should let a watch wind down to be a reliable time keeper. Maybe in this day and age if you have a 100+ year old watch that keeps decent time after service you should just enjoy it. Lets hear what some other folks might have to say about this.
Regards, John
Posts: 299 | Location: Mount Brydges, Ontario, Canada | Registered: November 10, 2005
I think what Chris meant regarding 'climate controlled environments' was that now-a-days a carry watch is in the owners pocket at a constant temperature, and otherwise is in an air-conditioned or heated location when stored. The variance will not vary more than, say, 20 to 30 degrees in any given direction...99 degrees in the pocket, and around 70-75 degrees in a home storage situation.
We don't have the variable temps to deal with that these watches had to deal with on a daily basis back in the day they were built.
If you think about it using those terms, we've REALLY gotten soft regarding our comforts in comparison to our ancesters, haven't we?
Thanks John!
Regard! Mark
Posts: 3837 | Location: Estill Springs, Tennessee, USA | Registered: December 02, 2002
Elgin had a sliding scale of accuracy depending on the jewel count and by the time you got to 23j count the accuracy was 1s/24hr. In the end the parts used were not the decerning factor in the price but the effort needed to run the watch through all of the tests. I seriously doubt there was much adjusting but to run the tests took days on end for the different position checks, if any adjustment was needed that reset the testing back to position 1.
If you look at the Elgin 37X series the 370 was 17j adj5p, the 372 was 19, 374/375 were 21j and the 376 was 23j. For nearly all the parts are interchangeable from 17j to 23j. All had gold trains, gold jewel sets and same nickel movement parts made by the same people so the difference was in the amount of effort in the positional accuracy. The 17j 370 was RR approved, the 23j 376 was RR approved but Elgin did adjust the higher jewel versions to a tighter lever of accuracy, that was above and beyond the RR standards of the time.
I agree with Chris, condition and lack of abuse is "King" now since many 992's, 992B's, 478's, 571's along with Vanguards have been used and abused to the point that trying to get RR accuracy is more of a pipe dream but some watches that were not abused or gooped like the one Chris mentions were spared hack repairs and spared from abuse by stupid fixes like green grease.
A lack of abuse, a lack of poor service, a lack of hack repairs and the use of improper parts, along with the basic lack of long term use wear to me has a larger impact on accuracy than the difference than the fact if a movement is 17j or 23j as long as we are talking about the grades adjusted to iso and temp and some positional adjustements.
Posts: 1797 | Location: Michigan in the USA | Registered: September 19, 2009
Two observations: How can you compare the lubricants being used now vs 100yrs ago? seems like a lot of variables have been introduced.
What amazes me is the precise tolerances. If this had been applied to the automotive industry cars would have been traded far less often. It used to be that an auto w/ 60,000 miles was considered on it's last legs.
Posts: 39 | Location: Illinois in the USA | Registered: November 16, 2011
To bump this once as a followup....I've been carrying this one for several weeks now, and it averages about 3 seconds slow a week. Not enough to go after, and WAY better than required for railroad accuracy.
The spring is so strong and the crown so small I've worn a callus on my right index finger from winding it in the morning, but I'm sure eventually it will loosen up.
Not too shabby at all, eh?
Regards! Mark
Posts: 3837 | Location: Estill Springs, Tennessee, USA | Registered: December 02, 2002
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You KNOW it Jerry!
