I recently purchased a Waltham Vanguard. I have been winding it once daily and tracking its difference with an atomic clock. It seems that if the time between winding is somewhat longer than 24 hours (say several hours) that it loses time very slightly and if shorter gains time very slightly. Is that to be expected? Is it due to age or ??? Was there a standard, for either the watch inspector or holder, for winding relative to compliance with the railroad requirement of 30 seconds per week?

It's always best to wind your watch at the same time every day if possible, for the obvious reasons you have stated. The facto that they are 50-150 years old adds to the equation as after time they aren't going to be as good timekeepers as the day it left the factory. You will find this to be true 99% of the time.

I had an old gentleman watchmaker tell me that if I wanted any watch to keep the RR required time, that he could do that for an additional $150-200 and it would take him an additional 30 days to time and regulate it in 5-6 positions.

If my RR watches are within 1-2 minutes per 24 hour period, I am happy, not ecstatic, but happy. After all they are antiques and God knows what they have been through and who might have worked on them that had no business taking off the rear cover.....

regards,
bb

Stanley;

Welcome to the club! If you're timing a 110 year old Vanguard with an atomic clock you're kinda missing the point. As Buster says, expect 1-2 minutes a day from these. Some may surprise you and do much better but watches this old are timed by MINUTES not SECONDS. And most of the time they will vary timing by at up to a minute or so from last time checked. They're OLD watches.

If I get a watch back from my watchmaker and it is on the same minute each day I am pleased. I have customers that enjoy timing these to see how well they do and there is nothing wrong with that. All part of the hobby.

What I do NOT recommend is constantly playing with the adjustments trying to get that last second out of them. You could possibly damage them or if nothing else wear them out even more. If they are more than 2-3 minutes off repeatedly it may be time for a cleaning/oiling/new mainspring. One RR watch that WILL time good repeatedly is a 1940s-1960s Hamilton 992B. Those are pretty much rock solid and do come in on time a lot better than the 100-120 year old ones. Just have fun, that's what it's all about!

Welcome to the club Stanley, as Buster and Tom have alluded to do not expect it to keep up with an atomic clock.

Due to the type of variance you are talking about I would say it is in need of mainspring. If it is not going to be used on a regular basis you have to weigh up if it is worth the costs of a service and the part needed.

Stanley when you wind your watch once a day at the same time. Are you winding it complete up.
Or are you just giving the watch a half dozen winds Or So.

Watch behaviour described is fully wound. Initially I failed to do so and it lost time badly. It was nearly run down and I wound it very little. That was my fault.

Does any one have any sort of info on how railroad watch inspectors ascertained that a watch kept acceptable time. I know that the railroads sent telegraph time signals so standard clocks could be compared. How would a watch inspector determine that a watch was acceptably accurate?

If you have been doing your testing with the mainspring fully wound initially and only running the watch in either dial-up or dial-down position, the variable rate you are getting Stanley is due to a weak mainspring. I would be getting it serviced if you do not know when it was last done and have a new mainspring fitted.

The same 1-2 minute variance seems to be the accepted norm for any mechanical vintage watch whether it be RR grade pocket watch or any old wrist watch. Is it really unreasonable to expect more from these old timers?

Agree, and disagree. You can find some that are still AMAZINGLY accurate time keepers.

For example, I have an 1869 15j Elgin key wind hanging on my watch hook that doesn't vary anymore than 30-40 seconds a week, and a 1924 Elgin 478 21j railroad watch that I have not reset since before Christmas.

Both are carried often, and wound at the same time every morning. I have others that get rotated through as well, and they are just as accurate.

You CAN get that kind of accuracy, depending on condition and how good your watchmaker is working on your watches.

All my watches, and some date to the mid-1800's and later, keep within 30 seconds plus or minus a week.

Never say 'never'. In the 50+ years I've collected/carried my watches, I have rarely been disappointed with their time keeping abilities.

Lucky I guess.

Regards! Mark

Hi Stanley and welcome!

The Waltham Vanguard was a high grade precision timepiece and even though 1-2 minutes is seen as an accepted standard for watches bought and sold, most US made watches of this caliber that have been well cared for and professionally serviced during use can be expertly restored and adjusted to hold a rate of a few seconds a day. Personally, I have 3 watches that I carry and when timekeeping goes anywhere near +/- 5 seconds a day, they get taken to pieces and serviced. The best example I have is a 1949 Hamilton 992B which barely falters at all. .....and it does help to wind at the same time every day.

William

Agree with Mark and William. My experience has been similar to theirs thanks to a skilled watchmaker.

quote:

Does any one have any sort of info on how railroad watch inspectors ascertained that a watch kept acceptable time. I know that the railroads sent telegraph time signals so standard clocks could be compared. How would a watch inspector determine that a watch was acceptably accurate?

When I started my 40 year RR career on Nov 4, 1966, there was a telephone number anyone could call and get a RR time comparison. Not being a watch repairman, I would say this was what the repairman used to get a time comparison each day, where he would adjust the time on his master clock if need be and compare the time on the watches that were being serviced.

regards,
bb

There was also and maybe still is a radio station in Fort Collins Colorado, which broadcasted the time around the clock. Think it was WWV. Ft. Collins, Co. at 15KC and some other frequencies.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WWV_(radio_station)

Hi Dave,

For years while living in the woods with no computer, my short wave radio tuned to WWV was my time standard. Even if the reception was very weak during the day, the on-the-minute "beeeep" would still cut through! And yes, it's still operating. Radio Station WWV

William

Thanks William, If you scroll to the bottom you can listen to it. Boy, does that sound familiar!

When I was a Radioman in the USNav, we used Greenwich Meantime as the standard to set our equipment.

https://time.is/GMT But, we didn't look it up on a computer!

When I used to listen to my ex-military R-725 receiver (hybrid R-390/R-390A), at times I could hear both WWV and WWVH at the same time. A man's voice on WWV and a woman's voice on WWVH (Hawaii). There was a noticeable delay of a second or so.

quote:

When I started my 40 year RR career on Nov 4, 1966, there was a telephone number anyone could call and get a RR time comparison. Not being a watch repairman, I would say this was what the repairman used to get a time comparison each day, where he would adjust the time on his master clock if need be and compare the time on the watches that were being serviced.

regards,
bb

Hey Buster who regulated the master clock the repairman used? Also was the regulator clock held to the same time keeping standards that the railroad approved watches were?

This arrived in the post yesterday morning.
90 years old, in very good shape & gaining 15 secs/ 24 hours. That's without touching the movement.
What make is it ?

Back in that era, RR time had to be exact as you had trains coming together head on where one of them had to enter a side track and let the other pass on the main track. The train in the siding had a written order in his hands and possession that he was to take the side track and align the rail behind him for the other train to get by. He had a certain time that was to happen by which was generally a 5 minute window. Time during that period had to be exacting for all operators and train personnel as well as the repair technicians who were pre approved to adjust and time the watches the men and woman wore and the clocks that were Standard Time that were used in depots and train stations on a given "territory".

I think, to answer your question, the pre-approved repairman would have kept his clock/watch in his shop, regulated, just as he kept others watches and clocks within exacting standards that were in RR service. Each day at a certain time that watch/clock would be adjusted, if need be, to the correct exact second ! RR personnel when reporting for each tour of duty, at the depot or train station, had to compare their watch with the Standard Clock before they could man the trains and it had to be within the standards that the particular RR allowed or that employee could not board the train to take it anywhere !

regards,
bb

Derek,
Without a photo of the movement, It can only be a guess, But the dial looks like a roman numeral version of the Waltham Up/Down indicator dial.
Same position and numbers on the small indicator dial.
Please, Post a photo of the movement, if you have one.

Just a guess.

Steve

Steven, you`re dead right - its off a Vanguard.
When this watch was made around 1927 the movement cost $80; & without the winding indicator $74. It doesn`t see a lot more for WI, but I don't know what wages were @ the time. The owner could keep the watch fully wound almost continuously if he so wished which would give some pretty constant timekeeping I guess.

And here`s the Waltham WI movement.

Derek,
Here is a picture of my Vanguard WI with almost the same dial. I was advised that this is a rather scarce dial, likely for Cdn use.
Bill

Great looking Vanguard ,Derek, I like those heavy Roman Numerals.

Steve

Beautiful watches! On my wish list.

Roger