As many of you know I am not an Elgin collector. So I know less than zero about Elgin's. I have a 19 jewel size 16 B.W. Raymond around 1922 I think s/n 24716738. The dial is not very good so I would like to replace it. I have a few Elgin dials but not many. Did Elgin offer more than one dial for this movement? I have a NOS metal dial but I am not a fan of metal dials even though this one is very nice. I like porcelain dials. Can you guys show me some of your B.W. Raymond dials that would be period correct so I can start looking for one.

Thanks,
Harry

Without a doubt it would be a DS dial unless it was the extra cost SS Montgomery dial. The watch below is a 19j and the dial would be proper if you have one. I think if you have a DS block Elgin dial with red minute markers, you might be ok also since I doubt that too many people would give you grief for it. These are very good time keepers and nice grades to have.

Harry ,Claude is right about that dial, it's the one usually seen on those 19J BWR's.I've seen an old Elgin ad where they called that one the"49" dial.If you don't have any luck finding one, Dashto Horological has a single sunk version of that dial for sale, it's near mint but has a broken foot.Better than nothing at all, and the price is right.

Thank you Claude. I see you live here in Atlanta. I don't know why I had not noticed that before. The dial I have looks just like the one in your picture but is not DS. It is only a SS dial and it has hairlines. The hands on mine look correct. The screw that holds the level in place is stripped out so you could not set the watch. I messed with it so it works now but I don't want to tell what I did to get it to hold.

I have an 18s with the red numbers and block letters so I guess I will have to start my search for the proper dial.

Thanks for your help,
Harry

Thanks Theodore mine has the SS version but has hairlines. It looks alright but I would like to get a DS one. Thanks.

Hope you find one Harry, there should be one out there somewhere.Those 19J Raymonds are a great watch to have, they're bulletproof! Take care, Ted.

Thanks Ted. I'm sure I'll find one. Thanks for the help.

Harry if you find one you not like it
let me know I need on as well but in size 18

Alright Pete. I'll keep my eyes open for a 18 size dial for you. I have an 18 size with the red 10 minute marks but I assume you are looking for the same style I am.

let me see it Im not so picky and it's for my
watch not for sale

The screw for the lever set (pivot) is fairly common but if you need one I have a parts 19j movement that I can pull the screw from. The 19j 372 is earlier and would be ok with the block Elgin with red minute markers but the later 19j was more often seen with the 49 dial that Ted mentions. I live up on the I-985 corridor, not far from road Atlanta but putting Atlanta means most people would know where it is.

I live down near the airport. My niece lives up in Gainsville. I don't need the screw. The plate hole the screw goes into is stripped out. I know I'm going to catch flack for this but I peened it with a staking set and that made it a little tighter but it still would not hold so I used a little blue Loctite. Boy I'm going to get it now. About what serial number did the change over on the dials take place?

Pete I will have take a picture and show you the dial.

Here you go Pete. Size 18. Hairlines at the bottom of the dial maybe would clean up. Looks better in person than in picture. Feet at about 54, 16.5, 36.5.

Elgin 18s

You know John after looking at my dial and yours
and few on ebay I like the big black # best.
Go figure.So hunting continue .

I'm with you Peter.

Harry not much flack would come from this direction since there are not a lot of options in the case of a stripped hole on the pillar plate so the method you selected would be resonable in my book.

On the dial, normally you see the DS 49 dial on these later 19j grade 455's. In some cases I think a SS 49 on these grades might be legit since you had the Webb Ball single sunks are better chatter going on. Mr. Ball passed on in 1922 and the 472's, 478's and later were all shod with single sunk dials. I have another Elgin SS that appears to fall in between the 49 and the later 472 dials which some were block Elgin types and some were block Elgin with the star below.

If yours is a 49 with hairlines and if it cleans up well then you might be able to put it back on. The DS 49 either in the 16 or 18 size tends to be a bit rare, especially the 18s.

Thank you Claude for that great information. Like I mentioned before I don't collect Elgin's so I don't know much about them. I have a spotless 7 jewel 18s and another 16s still in a can, a convertible, and this B.W. Raymond. I am not planning on getting anymore but if I see one that strikes my fancy you never know.

The two hairlines are noticeable but not that bad but it does have a chip around the sub seconds chapter I will have to see if I can work some magic. I will keep an eye open for a good replacement SS or DS dial for it.

Thanks again for your help,
Harry

Harry i have a dial that fits the 19 jewel 16 szie Raymond like in the picture Claude posted in mint condition ..it,s not cheap but is a mint dial.

Samie I will email you.

Harry

There appears to be at least 3 mainsprings for the size 16 Elgin's. Does this one take the #817 and if it does which strength 817 does it take?
Thanks,
Harry

Harry,
Elgin material book says it takes a #817 mainspring, strength .0075 which is a strength 4

Thank you again Gary.

Harry, I have one going up tonight on the bay with a bw raymond dial if you want to see it. It will be up by 10pm est

watchrules4me


andy

Harry, if that is a going barrel I have lots of the 817 mainsprings. Let me know if you need it and it's yours for the good will you've established last spring. Let me know

Harry I have a 16 size BW Raymond 19 jewel that I got in 1971 that has a single sunk dial and I always wondered if was original after reading the posts here I guess it is not original to the watch I learn a lot from this forum. Jeff

Thank you Samie for the dial. It arrived today and is mint.

Thank you Andie for the heads up. I will take a look.

Thanks Mike. I already have a mainspring on the way but I have another 17 jewel that can use a mainspring but I think the 817 for that 16s is a little stronger.

Thanks Jeff for your comment. I am not sure if the SS is correct or not but the DS definitively looks better and since my SS has two hairlines and a chip I'm going to take Claude's advice and put Samie's DS dial on.

On the dial I think the possibility that some came from the factory with a single sunk dial might be possible since Mr Ball was making a bunch of noise about the SS dial being better but I think that was more of a profit driven agenda than real fact. If you look at the time line you had the 453 (23J Veritas)454(21J FT),455 (19j BWR) and the next Elgins to roll out for RR use was the 472, and later the 478 and they were single sunk dials. So it could be possible that some 19j 455's ended up with SS dials at the very end of the production of the grade but all that I have seen are DS 49 dials and you do see SS/DS Montgomery dials on them at times but those were extra cost dials. These are well made and great workhorse movements. If it is a late run and the SS dial is in great condition I would not bother to swap it and even if it is an early to mid run if it is a good dial I might not swap it.

The dial looks ok if you don't look too closely. But there is a big hairline that runs from the top of the sub seconds chapter to about the 2 position.There is also a chip at the hairline at the top of the sub seconds chapter. It could be repaired but I will save myself the work and put a DS 49er dial on it. I think they look better anyway.

Harry I agree with what you did, I was responding to Jeff's question. Nearly all 455's I have seen had the DS 49 style dial but if someone asked "was that absolutely the only dial other than the Montgomery dials that Elgin put on the grade 455?". In that case I would have to fudge a bit since it might be possible some of the last ones made had SS 49 dials on them, I tend to doubt that but I will leave the "wiggle room" there. I just picked up another 455 movement for repairs or parts and it also had the DS 49 dial on it.

Thank you Claude for clearing that up. This is a beautiful Elgin.