I saw a Hamilton 975 being advertised as being built without a sweep second hand. It had a dial that was signed Hamilton. The dial had no hole where the sweep second hand should be. It also had a bad balance staff.

Well I did not believe they made a 975 without a sweep second had but I thought if I could get it cheap enough I could either fix the balance staff or use it for parts on some of my other movements.

I also know that they made Hamilton 975 models for shipment overseas but I do not know anything about them. Could they make the overseas model without a second hand? I doubt it but stranger things have happened.

I got the watch for what I though was a cheap enough price and I took the dial off (it wasn't any good anyway) and I saw the pinion sticking up through the jewel but it did not look broken but it also did not look long enough for a sweep second hand.

I have not decided which way to go yet ( repair or parts). I guess what I learn here will help me decide.

Any help or opinions would be greatly appreciated.
Harry

You need a dial. Often the second hand arbor post will not extend through the dial. There is a small tube that the second hand is moounted to that should "reach" the arbor post.

Hello David,

First let me correct myself. The movement I am talking about is a 975 not a 956.

Yes I took the old worn out metal dial off. I have plenty of Hamilton dials that would fit but the second had pivot just barely is visible protruding through the jewel.

Compared to a 974 I have the second hand pivot on the 975 is a lot shorter. I do not think a second hand even with it's long shaft could reach the pivot. The pivot could be broken off but it does not look like it. The top of the pivot looks smooth and polished like it was made that way. Of course that does not mean it was made that way.

As I was researching this very late last nigh I ran across a post about export models. The post did not mention the second had but it did mention that the export models have "Made in the U.S.A." stamped on the back of the movement. Well this 975 has that stamped on the back so I'm sure this is an export model.

So that brings me around full circle in trying to find out now if the export models had a second hand.

Thank you very much for your help but I still have unanswered questions.

Harry

Now I'm really confused. I went through some of my 956's, 974's and 975's. Some say "Made in U.S.A." as the artical I read indicated an export model. I found a 974 that the second hand pivot id not come through the jewel but I found 2 more that had second hands on them.

So that raises some questions that I'm sure some of you know the answer too. Either the post I read about export models being stamped with "Made In U.S.A." is not correct (maybe some are stamped and some are not) like some model numbers are marked and some are not, or, if they are export models maybe their are different export models for different markets and some use the second hand and some do not. Lastly the two I have without second hands are broken off (even if they do not appear that way).

So as you can see I'm thinking way too hard about this but it would be nice to know.

Harry, Your first post starts with;
"I saw a Hamilton 956 being advertised as being built without a sweep second hand. It had a dial that was signed Hamilton. The dial had no hole where the sweep second hand should be. It also had a bad balance staff."

Then you go on to say you got the watch and found a short second hand arbor post under the dial.

You later clarify this;
"First let me correct myself. The movement I am talking about is a 975 not a 956."

Then you look at an array of watches that seem to futher confuse the issue by their having no (broken?) seconds hand arbors, or seconds hands with arbors and some with or without "made in USA" marked on them. Due to the Swiss Import thing, a WHOLE LOTTA "MADE IN USA" marked watches were SOLD in the USA! NO WONDER YOU GOT CONFUSED!

Lets sort out a few things;
1. IF the watch you started this discussion about IS a 975, it IS A HUNTER MOVEMENT with the seconds hand at 90 degrees around the dial face "clockwise" from the winding arbor.
2. IF the dial on your watch is NOT equipped with a "seconds chapter" for the seconds hand to run around in . . .
3. and IF that watch with no ("sweep" refers to center mounted seconds hand which is only true for Hamilton 2974, 3992 and 4992 models) seoond hand hole is in an OPEN FACE case . . .
4. THEN we must conclude TWO VERY UNUSUAL THINGS!
A. It is a specially modified hunter movement in a Open face case!
B. It has a very, very, very RARE (Unheard of to this writer) Hamilton Hunter dial with no seconds chapter!

Many "Hunter" movements of much smaller sizes were "converted" by cutting short the seconds arbor for Hour and Minutes only dials for ladies wristwatches, Lapel Watches and so forth to use up inventory of ladies size Hunter cased watch movements that went "out of Vogue". But I have not ever heard of a 16s Hamilton Hunter movement being converted to open face with a minutes and hours only dial.

Please attach some pictures. This is a real MYSTERY!

Hello David,

I will attempt to provide some pictures. I am somewhat photographically challenged. When I purchased the movement it did not come with a case. It has a broken Balance Staff and a Hamilton Metal Dial with no hole for the second hand. The seller even mentioned it was a rare movement but I did not believe it. So I bid low and won it. I just wanted to see if he was being truthful plus I can always use another parts watch.

I will take some photos now and post in a while.

Hello David,

Please let me know if you need anymore photos. I will attempt it again if you need me too.

Let me start off by saying I think you are right about the conversion. The dials feet are at 7, 23, and 43 which enables the 12 on the dial to line up with the 3 position on the hunter movement.

As you can see in the photo it says Hamilton.

The movement I have several shots. If this is not good enough maybe you can direct me to where I need to concentrate the picture to achieve the desired shot.

Back of the 975 dial.

975 movement.

Close up of area.

Movement side.

Another view.

Last one

Good pictures, that helps a lot. The s/n1572461 is a 1923-1924 Vintage 975P movement. Closer inspection of the dial plate second staff area shows only that the seconds staff is certainly not there.

The dial itself could be restored by International Dial.

I would look for a sterling 3-hinge case to hold it.

The broken staff is no problem, and I suggest that this had some fancy hands and was in fact specially fitted for someone who wanted that classy engraved dial without the seconds chapter to muck up the art.

The Hands would be fancy, open diamond or Louis XIV. I would gravitate to the Open Diamond.

Thank you David,

So I see you think this dial was purposely made this way. That is great. Do you think it was ordered this way from the factory or jeweler or do you think is was altered after the fact from an original 975?

One more thing. All the information and suggestions you gave me are great, however do you think a 975 would be worth putting that much money into. I don't have hardly anything in it now and I'm sure I can find the hands at a modest price but I here dial restoration can be more an any watch I own. The cost of the dial restoration is the hang up for me. If I am to put that much money into restoring the dial would the watch be worth the cost of the dial. I have never had a dial redone before but I hear it is quit expensive.

Thank you very much again for your time you have taken to clear up this mystery.

Harry

http://www.internationaldialco.../Public/Default.aspx

You can always give International Watch co. a call and see if they'd give you a quote. Usually metal dials aren't all the expensive to have redone.

Regards! Mark

Harry, I have always been forced to see "cost" from two different aspects;

"Want" = Unlimited cost just ask your wife and kids

"Afford" = How bad YOU "Want" it!

In this case, the dial is the key to the value of this and it should be less than $50.00 to restore.

While it may not look exactly like the original "art", it will look very good.

As the Balance cock and Balance wheel are missing from the picture of the movement, I have no idea what is left of those parts, but if they are all there a "Clean and re-staff" could be negotiated.

The case is another issue, for now a "silveroid" would be fine.

Mark thank you very much for the link. I will contact them and get a price. I new I did not want to sink $350 into it but if I can get it done hundred a hundred then that is right up my alley.

David I have the balance cock, balance wheel, hairspring and balance staff. I just did not put it back on the watch as it did not have anything to do with the second hand pivot. The balance staff is bad and needs to be replaced.

Mark gave me a link to International Watch Co. to get a quote on the dial. Do you know of anyone else that does good work. I can handle $50 or so no problem.

I don't have any silver cases much less three hinged except for the one I have up for auction but it is a European case. Maybe someone will offer me a trade. I have plenty of silveroid/nickel case I could clean up until a nice silver three hinge case pots up. This is a stem set movement so I could even get a screw on front cover a I should not need to get in there very often.

David you have been a wealth of knowledge and help to me and I really appreciate it.

Harry

Update;

I contacted International Dial Co. and talked with a very nice young lady and she explained the process and cost and it sounded very reasonable to me so I'm sending the watch dial off to them for a hopefully beautiful re manufactured dial.

WhoooHooo!!!

I just got the dial back after International dial refinished it and it is fantastic! Here is a before and after shot.

Close up of finished dial.

Wow great dial now I know wher to ship my metal dial to get refinish.

I'm pleased to have been of help, Harry! They did a GREAT job for you!

HIGH regards! Mark

I agree, that's probably better than it looked when it was new.

Thank you Mark. I am very pleased with the dial. You can recommend anything to me anytime. However the joy stops there. With a dial in that bad a shape it would be highly unlikely that the balance staff was all that was wrong with it.

I replaced the balance staff tody and it is running and ticking just fine. However there is a very very slight wobble to the staff. It could have been that way before I replaced the balance staff or maybe I bent it ever so slightly. It would not run before so I will never know. It could have a worn jewel or just be bent.

When I went to wind it the rachet wheel sounded like it was grinding. I saw that it was indeed so I took it off and re installed it and that works fine now. But the minute hand will not advance. You can push it around and there feels like there is no resistance. It moved for about 4 minutes and hasn't moved since.

This is such a unique peace since it does not have a second hand pivot and no hole in the dial for one I think I will let Chris fix it if he will agree. I don't mind messing with common 974's because if I mess something up it is no big deal.

I will have a very unique piece once I get it running.

Well I have some great news about this 975 movement. It is a pendant set movement and I could not get the minute hand to move for more than a few minutes if that. The movement is unmounted so I pushed a winder into the winding hole and the minute hand started moving. So I placed the movement into a temporary case about 4 hours ago, Before placing it into the case I re centered the regulator and to my surprise the watch is keeping perfect time with my quartz watch in the face up position right now.

Like I always tell my wife I would rather be lucky than good!