I am confused about two Rockford KW's I have. I checked with my watchmaker and he says they are model 1's that have been converted to KW SW LS or Transitional models if you prefer. The Pocketwatch database says they are both model 1's and does not mention anything about being transitional. One is 9 jewel SN 7280 and the other is 7 jewel SN 36880 (even though the Pocketwatch database says it is 9 jewel). The price guide shows everything up to SN 114000 as model 1's but does not mention anything about being transitional.

They both have SW components even though the components look a little different. My watchmaker said there were two companies don't the conversions to transitional models and looking at my two watches that makes since.

They both have square topped canon pinons but when the minute hand is in place the square does not stick up above the minute hand. They both have tiny levers. On the 7280 the lever just pivots back and forth. On 36880 the tiny lever is hinged and you pull it out a little and then it pivots like the other one. I don't know how easily you grab the lever once installed in a case but I guess you can. Neither SW mechanism works that well and the teeth seem to slip some. The key works great on both.

So what I am asking any of the Rockford group is does all this make since or did Rockford make a lot of Transitional movements and they are just not documented.

Also I purchased a couple of KW Rockford hands years ago and tried to put them on tonight and the square in the minute hand is too small and the hole in the hour hand is too small. I am going to put a request in the appropriate pl;ace so if you can help me out with the hands please check there.

Thanks,
Harry

If you can not find a set Harry you should be able to broach both the hour & minute hand if they have enough meat on them to do so

Thanks Bila. Yes if I have to I can broach the hour hand but I don't know how to broach the square hole. Do they make tapered square files that small?

Yes, you can get a tapered square file Harry.

Harry,
It might be an Abbotts Stem Wind conversion...These were stem wind conversions kits sold by Henry Abbot to convert early KW's to stem winds...They do look a little different and the ones I have seen have a short lever sticking out of the movement..

Thanks Gary yes they have both been converted for what reason I don't know but it is making it a pain to find a case for them.

Here we go again !, I believe the early records have a few errors , I have a rockford that is stem wind and lever set S/W -L/S with a serial 53195 , there are few more in this block that appear to be the first stem wind rockfords , my numbers match , and has a square pinion , from what I can tell it is original , and i have come to believe a model 2 , interesting thing -look where 21 jewels was inscribed under regulator, wonder who did that ?

Harry I have seen quite a few Abbotts conversions but I don't think I have ever seen one cased...I know there has to be some around, maybe someone on this group can post some pictures of what they look like cased...

Kevin what does the lever look like? Mine are very small levers and they pivot instead of pulled. My watchmaker agrees with Gary that my to are Abbott conversions.One the female receptacle just floats around in the movement so you have to line it up to insert the winding stem.

I have one of mine in an open face nickel triple hing case. It has no hole for the key wind so you can either use the stem wind or I have to open the back to use the key wind. I have never seen a transition hunter case and a regular hunter can't be used because the square that the minute hand sits on does not stick up beyond the hand. If I use a traditional open face transitional case the hole does not line up so I have to open it to use a key or I can use the stem wind so I might as well use a regular case and save the transitional case. So right now I will put them both in a regular triple hing open face case. I guess when they came out with the transitional movements they never figured people would scrap those cases.

Harry , there is something odd about the lever ,it is small , and seems to be in a different place than other Rockfords but it has been too long for me too remember , this one sat around waiting for a case , I tried to sell it , but nobody wanted a private label serviced rockford for under 50 bucks ! I stuck it in a openface that had 2 crystals and will keep it until a silver hunter comes by . harry could you post some pictures , what is blocking a regular case from working

Lindell made a comment about Rockfords and the abbott conversion here - https://ihc185.infopop.cc/eve/f...376054962#8376054962
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Hi Kevin,

Here are pictures of 36880 and I will post a reply separately for 7280.

This one is put in a regular three hing case which works well if I don't mind a sidewinder and do not mind using the stem wind. If I wanted to use the key wind (which does wind better) I have to open up the two rear lids to access the key wind or O would need to drill a hole on the curvet.

36880-1

36880-2

36880-3

Here is 7280. The lever does not have a joint in it like the lever on 36880. This on just pivots back and forth. This one is also gold flashed for some reason. I am going to have to put this in a regular triple hing case so I can wind it and set it. I can h=open the back to wind it but I can not set it without a winding stem as the square does not set up past the minute hand.

7280

7280-1

The 36880 I believe is a model 2 , it has 2 mounting screws -model 1 has 1 , there is a 33290 in P/W database photos that is listed as transition . Have you had yours apart ? I also saw an earlier one listed as transition . My set lever is like the 7280 , it just seemed odd,and small , and required a little filing to the case

Kevin The Price Guide and The Pocket Watch Data base both say it is a model 1. As you well know there are almost as many mistakes in both of them than there is correct information. The 36880 stem wind mechanism is very crude and sloppy. The two case screws made it a lot easier to mount into a case. I am still trying to fit 7280 into a case. The problem is trying to get the pin into the hole and the movement past the winding stem at the same time. I have a coin case that has a screw to remove the winding stem so I will probably have to use that case.

Here is part of an article I found on the internet that supports your Model 2;

18 Size Model Descriptions
Model 1 – This model is described as full plate and drive train gears are not exposed. It has a rounded main
spring plate with styled rounded inner (nearest center) edge and covers approximately 25% of the watch
movement area. The balance cock is at the 8:00 position and the balance wheel is centrally located within the
watch area. This model stands out from all other models of this size by having only one case screw.
It is designed for hunter cases and is key wind and set. Set lever or crown winding action should not be present.
Model 2 – This model has the same appearance as Model 1 but it is key and stem wind, lever set and has two case
screws. It is often referred to as ‘the transitional model’ since it incorporated a change from key to stem wind.
Check for the presence of a lever on the dial side of the movement at or near the 2:00 position. It is designed for
hunter cases.

I believe you are correct and the Price Guide and Pocket Watch Data base are incorrect. I believe 7280 is an Abbott conversion and Abbott did a much better than 36880 Model 2 from Rockford.

Kevin I am through for now. I do need two long second hands for the two movements but I will track them down later. I took the coin case I have with a lot of patina (it is a triple hing) and drilled another hole beside the hole that was already in there and I filed out the case for the lever. Looks great but I need to take it back apart (at a later date) to clean it as the trying to wind it with the stem wind if difficult and a lot of slipping between the gears. It sets but is very stiff so it needs a good cleaning. The case does not have a hole in the curvette so I have to open it to wind via the key wind but it winds much easier that way. Looks pretty nice.

One other issue to help muddy the water. The Price guide shows SN's 1 - 114000 as model ones and as you noted Kevin and as I have found written in another article on Rockford,s it says the model one has one case screw and is KWKS and does not mention the ABBOTT conversion. It says the model 2 has 2 case screws and is lever set. Now the pictures in The Price Guide of the Rockford movements shows Model 1 and Model 2 as BOTH having 2 mounting screws. So according to the diagrams in The Price Guide you can not determine the case model by the number of case mounting screws.

I just pulled out my copy of American Pocket Watches by Ehrhardt & Meggers. It shows 4 18 sz. key wind models, Model 1 is key wind and key set. Models 2,5 and 6 are key wind and lever set. All four show 2 case screws.

Thanks Harv. That makes my 7280 a real puzzler. Mine only has 1 place for a case mounting screw. It also has a pin for the hole in the case. Mine is also gold flashed. So I don't know what to make of it. Maybe a prototype or special order I just don't know.

Harry - I recognize your original thread is a couple years old, but I recently acquired Rockford #7238, close in proximity to your #7280. My movement also features the "rocking" lever to engage the setting mechanism.

After inspecting under the dial, I concluded the design is not consistent with the familiar Abbott conversion kits.

Despite patent searches not yielding any results, I believe this was the first transitional design to be implemented at the Rockford factory, fitted as an enhancement to the standard Model 1.

I also have #10303 in my collection, verified with the same mechanism.

Hi Nathan,
Yes I see that on yours. Just like on the one I had #7280. I di read somewhere later that Rockford had made a mistake in starting their production at about the end of the KWKS era and entered the market when everyone was switching over to stem wide lever set or stem wind pivot set movements. According to the article Rockford rushed to changeover their existing unsold KWKS movements to the transitional style as their KWKS movements were not selling too well. Our two watches may have been part of that early period in Rockfords history where Rockford was trying to make the transitional movements and found that the small toggle type lever was not very good or practical. The much later Rockford I had with the hinged lever could have been an attempt by Rockford to lengthen the lever by adding a little more metal to the lever (I am only speculating). It did not work very well or at least mine did not. Just about the same time period I see Waltham and Elgin were experimenting with levers also. Eventually all three settled on what we normally think of as a level set movement.

Harry