I need some advise from my Elgin brothers. I know less than nothing about Elgins but I like eye candy so I have decided to start working on a couple of 18s Elgin's. Neither are RRG.

1) Elgin Grade 411 two tone 21J movement. It has a plain SS Elgin dial with ELGIN in block letters. It has the red 5 minute marker. A rather plan looking dial .SN 17288956 which makes it a 1913. Plain GF'd case. I have a near mint 7J Elgin I would like to put this Grade 411 into the case. Would it be acceptable to put a Fancy Dial on this movement?

2) Grade 317 two tone watch in a heavily brass case. It has a depressed Elgin dial the same as the one above but it is depressed. It also has ELGIN in block letters. SN 18799921 which makes this a 1916. I will probably have to put it into a coin case unless I have a GF'd case I don't know about. Would it also be alright to put a fancy dial on it?

Both are open face and both are pendant set.

Thanks,
Harry

Elgin sold fancy glass dials as an option and since it is a pendant set the RR crowd won't abuse you. Also a 411 should have a double sunk dial. The 411 should be a tu-tone and not many made so the glass dial would jazz it up a little.

The 317 has what is called a depressed center, or pressed center that gives the impression of a double sunk without the work to make a double sunk, you see these on later 17j 16 and 18s movement. Also a glass dial would be ok on this movement.

Thank you Claude our Elgin expert. I have two Elgin SS glass fancy dials that will go good on them. The DS Elgin dials do not have Elgin in Block letters. They have Elgin Nat. Watch Co. in script or Elgin in what looks like Old English with some kind of design on each side which I believe are a different period.

Thanks again Claude.

Yes the 3xx and 4xx grade movements should have Elgin in block letters, late 1890's early 1900 you see the <<Elgin>> where Elgin is more in flowing script with filigree on each side. If you have a double sunk dial with Elgin National Watch company in English gothic style font and it is in good condition you have hit the minor lotto. This style would have been used in the early to 1890's to around 1896 time frame. There was another style that I will post a picture of when I get a chance which is not as flowing script and should be Elgin Watch Co and it is only found on early grade 150 20 jewel movements and no many are out there in good condition.
https://ihc185.infopop.cc/eve/f...533991387#1533991387

This covers most of the Elgin dials, you see the block Elgin, the Elgin with the filigree and the very rare version but I will dig for the flowing English script version and post it.


I think yours is the flowing English script in the 4th or 5th photo in this post

https://ihc185.infopop.cc/eve/f...983958677#9983958677

In your case put on the fancy glass especially one the tu-tone and save the double sunk one for a more correct grade movement. If you have the last one the which is more rare keep that for a 20 jewel grade 150, was not typically found on the 20j 149, mostly on the 150 and very hard to come by.

Hi Claude my dial that is in script that says Elgin Nat. Watch Co. is not in old English script just in a cursive style script.

Both the 317 and 411 are two tone so I will put a fancy glass dial on each of them. Thanks for the help!

Even in the cursive style is a good one to have as a spare and definitely not correct for any of the movements you have. I have never been able to snag a 411, only 1000 made and one of the few tu-tones that Elgin made.

Hi Claude I actually like the two tone pattern on the 317 better. It is only 15 jewel but to me is more attractive than the 411. I made me a deal for buying both although I probably paid too much. I hardly ever see a two tone Elgin and that is why I jumped on both. I also have a 12s two tone Elgin and those three are the only two tone Elgin's I have.

There are the 18 size that you mention and there is a 16 size, at least one and there might be more than one 12 size but you are correct Elgin was not one to make tu-tones. The most common tu-tone is the one that Wayne has on his serial number look up site which is the 345 12 size. I have a bunch of Elgin watches but not one tu-tones, the tu-tones that I have are Hampden or Illinois which tended to make a bunch of them.

Well Claude I never looked up the 12s two tone I have until just now. According to the Pocket Watch Data base it is a grade 997 Model 3 Class 114 17j Open Face Adjusted, Adjusted to 4 positions 1915 Pendant set. According to the Pocket Watch Data Base there was one run of 1000 and a total of 1000 produced. It is very lovely and I bought it a few years ago for $75. I never knew what I had until I looked it up a few minutes ago. With only 1000 produced I guess I made a pretty good deal.

I have a lot of two tone Hampdens, one two tone Hamilton, and several two tone Illinois. Here is a picture of the 12s and the 18s 317. The pocket watch data base says there were 261500 of these two tone 317 but I believe this is not correct as all the pictures demakeen patterns were not like this one and none of them were two tone. Grade 317 model 5 class 106 year 1916 15j.

12s

18s 317

Harry,

That 317 is a beauty, well done! I would love to add on of these to my Elgin's one day.

Thank you Serge.

Your 997 is an upgraded 345, usually when you see an Elgin grade 9xx it has some sort of upgrade to it. I think the 345 which was produced quite a bit is marked adjusted or adjusted 3 positions during its production life, yours will be marked adjusted 4 positions. On the 317 I have seen Elgin do odd things, I had a 339 that I sold to the family of the jeweler (was a private label) that looked nothing like a 339 that I have ever seen. So that could be the case for the 317.

Thanks Claude I did not know that about Elgin.