I’ve seen or read about lots of thin 12-size and some thin 14-size American mechanical PW's. Are there any thin 16s or 18s models?

Thanks in advance for sharing your experience!

[This message was edited by Dog on July 17, 2003 at 0:44.]

Stu,

The following is from an earlier post:

I came across this watch last year on Ebay. It's a BWR, 19J, 5 adjustment 12s spread to 16s watch. Although it wasn't running, I just couldn't pass it up for $48.00. After a good cleaning, it came back to life and is a great runner!

The interesting thing about this watch is its size and thickness. I believe Elgin had already produced a "thin" 12s watch but apparently they thought there was a market for a thin 16s also. Thus, the grade 448 was born. It had the same guts as other 4th model, 12s watches but a larger 16s pillar plate. It came in its own special BWR 16s case. The movement was held in place by a screw and clamp setup. The paper-thin dial is attached by three dial feet and two tiny screws, located at 6 and 12 o'clock. The watch measures only 9mm thick, while a typical 16s is over 13mm.

This watch should be considered a 2 star watch because of its rarity. There were only 1,000 made in 1916. Since this movement cannot be re-cased easily, most of them were probably reduced to parts watches as their cases wore out.

The person I purchased this from was kind enough to include a short history of the watch. It was passed down to him in 1958 by his beloved uncle "B.J.". This is an email he sent me:

"Hello, John----Thanks for the nice note------your watch went Priority Mail today 12/3, insured at my expense for $50.00.
This watch belonged to my Uncle "BJ"--Benjamin Joyous Adams. He was born in 1880 in Mississippi and died in 1969 in Ohio. He was married to my mother's older sister Willie A. Adams---also known as Bee or Billie. You will see her name on the inside of the watch back---probably from taking it to the jeweler for repair at one time, to identify it. Uncle BJ was a portly, always well dressed (he always wore a vest, even at home), true southern gentleman with small round eyeglasses and love for smoking cigars and cooking. This was probably more information than you wanted……………I hope you are pleased with the watch. All the best-----"

Signed,

Jim Daley

One last thing about this watch; the minute hand. Mr. Daley later told me that Uncle B.J. had a jeweler bend it at the hub. His sight was getting bad and by doing this enabled him to see both the minute and hour hand even when it was 12 o'clock. I tried to leave the minute hand as found but it separated during removal and had to be replaced. Otherwise, the watch is all original.

John D. Duvall
NAWCC Member 144772
NAWCC IHC Happy Camper 192
Chapter 185 Watch Repair Moderator

sure,

the Illinois Model 10 Sangamo Special was a 'thin' 16s watch...

this is one reason for the single sunk dial on these movements....

they also do not 'correctly' fit a standard 16s case....and were cased at the factory...

the 'correct' case is the Wadsworth screw back, hinged bezel, with the 'thin triangle' bow.
it is marked in the back on the earlier versions "patented bow and crown".... the later cases were also marked 'sangamo special'...

Nifty watch JD! I searched the MB before I posted the question but I didn’t come up with your earlier post so I appreciate that you put it up again!

Wayne Schlitt’s Elgin site lists nine Elgin grades (393, 394, 395, 396, 438, 439, 440, 448 and 449) as 12-size movements with 16-size dials. But it doesn’t say which are thin. Since you point out that the 448 is thin I wonder if any of those other grades are thin?

Shugart 2002 describes 12-size Elgin models 2, 3 and 4 as 12-size spread to 16-size. But it doesn’t say which are thin. Since the 448 is a model 3 I wonder if all 12-size model 3’s are thin? I wonder if model 2’s and model 4’s are thin?

So much to learn!

Hi all,

Waltham advertised their 18 Size 1859 Model as their "thin model," because, being a 3/4 plate watch with the balance pivoted beside, rather than on top of the train plate, it was thinner than their contemporary full plates. Similarly, Howard keywinds were relatively thin for their time. In fact, Reed's barrel patent claims that its use enables a watch to be made thinner. This is why experienced persons can look at a bunch of hunting cases on a MART table and can often pick the Howards out immediately without even looking at the dials.

Clint Geller

John D,

Regarding your Elgin grade 448 12s spread to 16s: what's the outside diameter of the case?

Thank you!

Stu,

The watch is 47.15mm in diameter and about 9mm thick.

John D. Duvall
NAWCC Member 144772
NAWCC IHC Happy Camper 192
Chapter 185 Watch Repair Moderator

Thank you John.

I wonder if there are any thin (~9mm would be super) watches with considerably greater (~52mm) case diameter?

Stu,

I'm sure there are some of the older cylinder escapement watches that are probably that wide and almost that thin. It would be nice if everyone who sold watches on eBay had calipers.

Talk about your apples and oranges. I asked a seller once about the width of a case and she said it was about the width of an orange. Bless her heart, I had to reply with another question; "California or Florida?" She never replied again.....

John D. Duvall
NAWCC Member 144772
NAWCC IHC Happy Camper 192
Chapter 185 Watch Repair Moderator