Thanks for the info Lindell, I will gladly do anything I can to help. There may be someone else that is better than creating a data base, I taught myself Microsoft Access a few years ago & created a fingerprint data base at my former employment but it has been about 10 years or better since I did that. I recently bought the newest version of Access & was going to try to creat a data base on Illinois using Meggers book & other data & posts to this site, but I so far found I forgot a lot so I went out & bought a new book to try to help.

So whatever I can do I will try & it is as you said to be shared & not for profit.

Tom

Lindell, that is great information and guidance and exactly what is needed at this juncture of the project....

Tom, I think you will be the chap to do this but if I may suggest one thing....I think Ernie would be great working with you in helping set up the database, based on his experience with the state that he mentioned in an earlier post and between the two of you I think a great database will emerge....

If there is anything that I can help you with, please do not hesitate to let me know and remember this guy, you are not expected to incurr any expense out of pocket, your time is going to valuable enough....

Maybe we ought to set up a fund thru IHC185 whereas members, if they wish to & nothing is mandatory, may donate into it....I will pledge $50.00 here and now....If any money is needed, you will be able to draw from the fund to pay for anything should the need arise....We probably need to hear from Lindell or possibly Debbie on this proceedure....

It would also be a good thing if we had some comments, yea & nay, from all our super great members....

Another thought occured to me....maybe someone who has the helm of this ship can go back up this string and separate the portion where this topic was started and move it to the place where it will eventually wind up after the database is established, that might make it easier to include the history of it's origins....

Just a thought....

Regards,
Jerry

Jerry

As far as I am concerned I would rather not have funds earmarked towards me or this right now, I can't see other than time any expense. But if Lindell want to hold funds for perhaps educational expenses, such as the Illinois info he, Steve & others have talked about.

Tom

I guess I kind of briefly read some of these posts, I went back at Jerry's advice about Ernie's post, sounds like he has more hands on experience with creating databases than me, perhaps I could help him.

What is your feeling on this Ernie, maybe I would serve a better purpose as a researcher to track down posts, data, lists & images?

Tom

Before we get too carried away I need to remind people what I said:

"I will be happy to keep track of the data and sort it. I did work like this for the state of Wisconsin for about 25 years. I could probally keep track of a number of different case manufactureres."

I didn't say anything about creating a database. I don't have the computer size to do that. When I worked for the the state of Wisconsin I was a Research Analyst. I was not a computer programmer.

I will be happy to work with anyone on this project but I don't have the ability to create a database. I can get the data organized for a programmer to create the database.

Tom, the Pocket Watch Case Research Fund was only a suggestion and I still think a good one, however, we could always wait until & if we find that we do meet with some expense, that's no biggie....

Ernie, computer size should have nothing to do with this project....let me refresh everyone's memory to Lindell's statement in his last post....

Quote:
"The more we post right here in this topic, the better, this information, basically all information should be freely shared. No secrets, no hidden information, no profit motive."
Unquote:

Let us address our specific concerns and listen to Lindell's guidance to see if we can set the database up here within IHC185....that is where it really should be anyway, in my humble opinion....

Regards,
Jerry

Jerry

Whatever everybody wants is fine, but I don't think this site has the capabilities of hosting a database. All the serial number lists I have seen here are just that lists & that is fine with me if that is what we want to do.

Tom

Before we can set up a database we to capture the information. We can do that right here. We will need everyones cooperation with posting the information. then someone can take that information and put it into an excell program and sort it. Then we can repost the information as we get enough data.

Once we have a somewhat complete data list then we can put it into a database with search capabilities etc.

But, first we need the data!!!!!

One thing I thought of is, that if only watch cases with movements are listed, then you loose a great deal of case information that may be very important, but if you list everything, that could also fill in some of the gaps.

However,
That makes it a much bigger project, and if the idea is to only collect Railroad Pocket watches with cases for dates, then it's the perfect way to go.

The more limits, the less chance of getting information about cases.

So, the real question is, do you start a case and movement date database, or a database that also tries to make some kind of order out of the case questions, that everyone has wondered about for years.

I'm not partial, it's interesting to do any project, but it has to be a bit more spacific.

One thing is for sure, the more you post, the more you can glean, no matter which database you choose.

Great Sheila, nice to have your comments....just what we're waiting for....

I don't think we have mentioned anything about limiting this to 'Railroad Watches/Cases'....Not my intent at all, I think we need to include all cases of manufacture and all sizes....

I know it increases the size of the data base but to do it all everything should be included, in my opinion....

That being said, Ernie, Tom, or Sheila, anyone...? how do you want to receive the information and in what form...?

Do you want 'all members' to start posting in this string? Watch Brand Make: Serial Number: Case Mfg: Case S/N: Do you want to include Size info, Material such as 14K, 10K, Coin, Sterling, Silveroid, Base Metal, Type Case such as Open Face, Hunter...?

The more info will probably be better that way you the gatherers have more info to choose from and discard the rest...?

I hope I am clear in this, if not please ask for clarification....I'm not sure I understand it either....

Regards,
Jerry

OK, it's time to give my full thoughts on this issue. I think we need to post ALL the cases we can, according to the comapany, with the numbers.

Just my opinion.

I'm up for whatever is decided.

Lindell,
That is a fantastic example.

I also think that if we post the movement date of the watch, (although they are not confirmed) we may get a few that we can match to a date, or an Ad or something, if we see 4-5 in the same date range and number range.

AS LONG AS IT IS UNDERSTOOD THAT THE DATE IS NO INDICATION THAT IT CONNECTS ANYTHING, UNTIL THERE IS A CLEAR EXAMPLE.

What do you think?

I agree Shelia, I think to get the most out of the data we get we need everything about the watch & case, serial number for both. Pretty much every piece of data about the watch & case, including either a photo of the case marks due to the fact that symbols were changed over time but also most of them were trademarked so we might get dates from thos symbols.

If we get all the data it could them be used to find out other information not just cases.

Tom

I have been thinking about how to do this. One thought would be, if possible, a post page for each of the major case manufacturers in the form of a spreadsheet with columns whereby members can add data from their watches. For Wadsworth cases, the column headings could be case name/model, date, serial #, material, open/hunter, watch co., model/grade, size, serial #, etc.

I think an important column would be "extra case screw marks" with a yes or no as we could get a somewhat clearer picture if the entries have been recased. A "no" in this column may be an indicator the movement is original to the case.

Again, I don't know if this approach is practical or not. It would require every member being able to "edit" each case manufacturer post.

Another option would to have secured pages in cyberspace where the spreadsheets could be accessed, data added and saved.

I just think it important to have a structured reporting mechanism so data that is added is in a uniform format. Will make it much easier to sort and analyze the data. Multiple postings could be cumbersome to manage.

Just some ideas I had. Let me know if they could be actionable.

Mary Ann

That is also what I have been thinking, I like the idea of a seperate area for each manufacture & that is one reason I mentioned the data base idea or some way of putting all this data into a searchable form. As you say if they are all just seperate posts with no uniform entry it will be hard to come to any acurrate information.

What Lindell showed would work but again that is one complete list, I don't know how this site put together the list we have such as for Ball or Hamilton etc. Maybe someone that helped make those lists can tell us how they were able to combine it into one list.

I also agree the number of case screw marks is important, I think we would still want the info on recased watches but we would need to know that was what they were.

Hopefully this makes sense & I didn't ramble to much.

Tom

This is all great ideas and there is nothing better than to see a plan come together....

Everyone is on the right path and the more info we can gather the better....

Don't you all agree that we also need to have an area within the system that we can list cases we have that are empty with no movement...?

I agree that we should have separate strings for separate case manufactures....

As Lindell stated in his post above, there is plenty of space within IHC185 to house the database whether it is interactive or passive (list orientated)....

As I see it we need to establish the headings of each column and standardize the form then start each string with the more common case manufactures.... we can always start another string for a lesser common case maker...

One other thought; we may need to see if there are any other comments from any other members before actually starting, but we do need to go ahead and try to finalize a form of some kind....what do you all think...?

Regards,
Jerry

I think it's a go.

I know that I love the database that I have. An example was offered to me by a member here, and it works great.

It's like the one mentioned here, it has the HEADINGS, and the information follows.

Like the example photo below.

Of course we would need to select the Headings and whatever other information would be desired.

BUT..........

I don't think we can do that here on the board though, so with just the posting information here, we could add it to a simple spresdsheet type database.

I'm willing, and can post it, or send it to anyone that wants it.

Most important, we need to start it now, and on the board for everyone, no matter how we post it.


Check out mine, of course, mine starts with my Pansy's. It's the short version, mine has MANY more Headings than shown.

Here's another photo of another part of the list.

I am not trying to throw a wrench into this plan but after re-reading & then re-reading Lindell's posts on this topic. I spoke with Lindell on the phone & one of the major problems with doing what we have been discussing is that watches that were not cased at the factory will not show any pattern in regards to case numbers.

As was talked about at the beginning of this topic are several facts.

1. Case company with a few exceptions did not sequentially number there cases & changed the numbering system based on the style of the case. No records have been found showing what numbers were issued what year.

2. They did not necessarily issue out to the cases to jewelers in any type of order as to case numbers.

3. Depending on the volume of business the jeweler did one jeweler would be putting out more cases in a year than another jeweler.

4. This is probably the most important fact is there are no set movement & cases that can be stated as a fact that went together. Such as we have with factory issued sets such as the Hamilton 992, 992B, 950B, Illinois Bunn Specials, Sangamo Specials etc.

With out sets like that as Lindell explained we do not have any controls. With for example the 992B, we have all seen the cardboard box that is labeled, the plastic box that is labeled & then the watch & case itself. Those sets we know left the factory in that combination. The more of those sets that are put into the list will then show a pattern over the years as to what case numbers went with what year, then when you have a case without anything else based on it's number you can see how it fit into the control (boxed set) cases you can get an idea as to what year that case was issued. The same would work for a case & movement, based on the serial number list for movements you come up with a year, then by comparing the case number to the control you can say does that case fit with that year movement or doesn't it.

I am not trying to discourage anyone from trying to put this information together but I think unless we stick to types of watches that have controls all we will have is another list with movement serial numbers & they years they were made (which we already have) & then attached to that is a random list of cases & case numbers.

I wish we could make this work but I honestly don't see how. It is my understanding we have the ability to use of Hamilton serial number list & Hamilton case number lists & determine if our watch & case fits into that set.

We can do this with some Illinois & some Elgins if I am not mistaken.

We can also determine most any Wadsworth case as to the approx. year it was made.

In my opinion, and that is all it is, we could work on perhaps Walthams that boxed sets can be verified.

One I have been working on is Howard Series 11 RR Chronometers. I tried to start a post showing what I have done so far put when I cut & paste all my data into the post a message form I lose all my formatting & you can't make out what I am talking about. I started with the Howards for a reason other than case numbers but doing these I started to see a few patterns but this is because Howard cased all of these movements at the factory & they only used two model cases for all othe series 11.

I think I have probably written way to much on this & perhaps no one is even going to make it this far into my post.

Again, I am not trying to discourage this & I think it is great so many people are willing to work on this but I felt I needed to express my views on this.

Tom

Tom,
Your so right. I made the connection before, when Lindell wrote it, but got off track. We need to start with the ones that have a hope of getting us some additional information.

With Lindell's information, we do have a good chance of getting somewhere, and it's a great place to start.

Lets keep going with this, and get to work on it.

So lets start with the watches you mentioned above. Or any that Lindell thinks are the best candidates to work on.

I've already started to post case numbers in my database so that I can add any that are needed.

So which ones do we research?

I have found a great source of information on ebay. As I am doing my searches for Illinois watches I pull up items I may not even be interested in and if they have a case number and movement number I write it down on a tablet and later add the information to the Sangamo or Wadsworth (Illinois) Bunn Special Database. I have added a boatload of information to the these posts as well as the Seven Stars Database.

I have even gone so far as to contact the seller and get the information from them if the information is not clearly visible in the listing. They usually are quite willing to give the information up.

Steve

Steve

That is what I have been doing on the Series 11 also.

Tom

I agree that we need to keep to things we can control and obtain solid information about. We need to be narrow minded at first and list known relationships, watch serial numbers, case numbers the watches are cased it and the year of mfg.

After we get enough information recorded then we can fit watch cases into the list to determine an approximate year of mfg.

Gathering information about cases where the manufacturer did not number sequentially all we will gain is a list of numbers that don't tell us anything about the year they were made. We would be waisting our time with that manufacturer. Maybe down the road we can expand to include those numbers but any accurancy would have to be questioned. We may only get within a decade on those manufacturers.

You guys & lady are correct in your assumptions....

As Lindell has pointed out, cases and movements are being exchanged on an hourly basis, at times....this will eliminate any accurate information from being gained by doing things in the manner we have been trying to set up....If we are trying to set up a date/case relationship, it will be very difficult if not impossible to do....

There is one exception in Elgin's case/movement relationship and that is with their "Lord Elgin" Grade 543 21j,10s with 14 size dial....all those watches were cased at the factory and many or most of them are not interchangable....I have a number of them and most of the cases are different one from the other....

Wadsworth would be one that we probably could develope a database on....If Steve, Tom or Sheila wants to add any of the case mfg. to their already started database, then let's go ahead and do it that way and see where it leads us....

What say you....

Regards,
Jerry

I just posted the list I have been putting together of Howard Series 11 watches if you want to take a look at it & see what you think.

Howard Series 11 Rail Road Chronometer Serial Numbers Database

Tom

Let's see how this plays. Lindell, I too have a 992E in a #10 Wadsworth case. My serial number on the movement is 2652962, and the case number is H406508. Same H.G. dial as on Lindell's. Since both the movement AND case serial numbers are slightly larger on mine, it seems the sequence of manufacture of both movements and cases are in line with an assumption of numerical similarity. Sadly, I do not have the box!!

Mike

From the movement serial number & this sites Hamilton numbers it would be 1940 & from Lindell's list above your case would fit with 1940. That is if I did that right.


Tom

Tom, you did everything exactly correct....and I like the data base you are putting together as shown in the link you provide in your post of April 03, above....

Great Job...!

Regards,
Jerry

I support this idea completely as the "clues" will come out of a simple "Histogram" of the date/Case numbers. We can use that to "scale" the case dates more accurately.

Done right this would help tell us which watches are recased and which are not.