Is there any information out there to date a Keystone Rail Road case which has serial # 7928452?

Steve

Five Bunn 19 jewel 60 HOUR watches.

Steve

I have been searching around for a possibel answer but no luck yet.

Tom

The reason I was wondering about this information is because I am always searching for the bold and mysterious variations that Illinois and Hamilton produced during their times of manufacturing and particularly during the times of their transition from the hands of one to the other. To start things off I am showing a photo of 5 Bunn Model 19 jewel 60 hour watches. Note that 4 of them have the same dial and the two in the back have Hamilton style hands on them as well.

It would appear that the 4 with the same dials although about 1926 by serial number, were assembled at the Hamilton plant sometime after 1930. These 4 watches have the exact same dial as the Hamilton 992(I believe) of the 1930's era. Only the hallmark is different.

This leads me into the intent of this discussion. Read on....

Here is a watch I recently acquired, note the same dial as the 4 above as well as the Hamilton style hands yet this is a 21 jewel Bunn Special from a production run in 1924. Could this be one that was not sold by Illinois or fell through the cracks during assembly and in the back of the vault somewhere and later put together by Hamilton just to get rid of it? I suppose anything is possible.

I was hoping if I could date this case, it might help verify its originality.

Steve

Here is the rear of the case......

This is a very clean and well running 21 jewel Bunn Special movement. So what do you say? Is there enough evidence?

Steve

Steve

That front one in the center looks identical to my Ball model case, I think it was made in 28 if I remember correct.

I wonder if Keystone cases, did each model of case get it's own set of numbers (which I would think) or was there one set of numbers used on all their cases?

Tom

Sorry Steve

I was typing as you were making your other posts.

Is that a case screw mark near the B in Bunn & something down near the click?

Tom

Tom,

Your are correct about the Ball case. That was my Grandfathers watch. For awhile I presumed it had had the dial and case replaced throughout its life but after discovering these other 19 Jewel 60 Hour Bunn Models with the Hamilton style dials I feel the movement was purchased with the dial and hands and since they were sold uncased, he got a deal on a really nice "used" Ball case to put it in.

Maybe I can get Lindell to post a picture of his Hamilton with the matching dial. I know he has one, that's what prompted us to formulate this theory in the first place.
Steve

Tom,

It looks like you are absolutely correct...there is another set of case screw marks in it and they are not Illinois. So much for the originality issue between the case and movement. Maybe as my Grandfathers case was purchased used, this was as well or replaced what was in the case to start with. Anyhow, it's mostly speculation now.(((((POP)))) goes the bubble.

Steve

Steve

Sorry about that, I wasn't sure, it is so hard to tell from photos. I still like the idea of putting together a data base on case numbers.

But as I write this I can see a major flaw in doing that, since so many jewelers cased movements themselves, I can see how a busy jeweler would go through cases one after another but a slow jeweler might have the same cases on hand for many years.

I guess the only way would be for factory cased watches, then if you had a large enough data base with the case numbers & the watch numbers maybe you could form some rough correlation between the case numbers & the year.

Tom

Steve

I was just reading an old post from back in 2006 that talks about Hamilton trying to unload all the old Bunn Specials that were non-60 hour & putting them in Bunn Special cases.

Don't know if you have every read it but it was interesting & gave me another thing to try to remember & also look for.

https://ihc185.infopop.cc/eve/f...361043122#1361043122

Tom

Tom, if I understand you correctly, you are saying that the jeweler is the one that numbers the case and that a busy jeweler would use more cases than a jeweler who was not as busy....while that is logical in my estimation it doesn't matter whether a jeweler is busy or not because the cases are already numbered by the factory that made the case....

I have often wondered about the cases myself and whether or not there are any records anywhere that would list the various cases by case number and if so would there be any records of the date of manufacture....

This would be great if there were then it would certainly be easier to determine if the case and movement were time period compatible with each other.

Does anyone know if there is such records...?

Regards,

Jerry

Jerry

No, I am sure the case companies numbered the cases, what i was saying is say you got cases 1-100 & I got 200-300. Now you sell 50 watches a month so in two months you will get another order of cases in say 500-600. Now I only sell two watches a month, those 1st 100 cases are going to last me a little over 4 years at that rate, so by the time I place my next order mabe they are into the 6 digit numbers.

Not sure if my explanation of what I think might have happened & therefore jeweler cased watches couldn't bee tracked by the case number.

Or I might be all wet.

Tom

Jerry,

Since this case was a case made for resale by the jewelers, probably the only way to track them would have been through factory shipment records if they recorded the information when they were shipped.

And like Tom pointed out, High volume jewelery stores could be selling them much faster than the little small town establishments. That could lead to a wide and unusual pattern in a data base for sure.

Hamilton used a case quite similar to the one above for their 950E movements and were thus trackable as the factory provided the case for the movement. Assuming they used them in the order they received them then their would be a trail that could be pursued.

If you also follow some manufacturing processes where the "case boy" was sent to the stock room to retrieve cases for the floor, you might get what was easiest to reach rather than the next case in order. A little more confusion thrown onto the pile.

If you look through the Illinois Database of factory Wadsworth cases you can see this "Shotgun" dispersal of the numbers.

Steve

Tom,

I just read the link you posted and very interesting stuff. Reinforces what I had been saying about those Hamilton dialed Illinois movements as shown above. I will be paying closer attention to some of those nonfactory looking cases in the future.

Steve

Tom,
I understand what your meaning is now, so, if the slower jeweler had cases made in lets say, 1920, and he still had those cases 4 years later then he was putting the newer movements into an older case than was the faster jeweler who kept up with the production....

Steve,
What you are saying is that certain jewelers made their own cases and would put a movement into their case if they could sell it to the buyer...? Correct...? Boy that would mess up everything....

Regards,
Jerry

Jerry,

I was trying to say the same thing as Tom. The cases were made and numbered in sequence in the factory and packed up and shipped out to different jewelers. The larger firms would move a greater number in a faster time where the small mom and pop shops would go much slower thus making their supply last much longer and maybe even running into different production years. So now you would see cases from a 1920 production showing up with a 1922 movement in it. And there in lies the potential for the gray areas.

Factory cased movements used sequentially marked cases in their movements only as they were needed. This gives a matching progression of both case numbers and movement numbers as the units are sold. To follow the progression of the Bunn Special First model case is a good example as the only movement to go in it was the Bunn Special 60 Hour for the most part. So as a movement was completed it was put into the next sequentially numbered case. This was probably not the real world scenario but it was close.

Steve

Okay, Steve & Tom....now that we are all on the same page, is there any case manufacturer that kept records that show which year certain serial numbered cases were made and if so does anyone know where that or those lists are located...?

Anyone...?

Regards,
Jerry

Jerry

From everything I have ever read I do not think any records survived from case companies.

Take for example the Keystone Watch Case Company which started in 1853, in 1903 they purchased the E. Howard name (only) & began to make watches & cased their watches in cases they made. But from my understanding very few records if any exist from them. They also owned New York Standard, Crescent Watch Co., Philadelphia watch case co..

Another example is Hampden Dueber watch company if you want to read about them & cases, check the guide.

Tom

Hi guys, let me add something here. I just talked to my grandfather this morning and he said said as for the small mom and pop store (like his dads in 1914) they never bought or had, on hand extra cases. Didn't have the money for them. When they needed a case they would contact the company and buy one at a time. Back then he said it took 2 to 3 weeks to get them and that was fine. I sure the larger stores bought more than one at a time though, as they used more. Just my 2 cents.

Thanks Tom....It is unfortunate that there are no records for cases because it would have made things much easier, but....so goes life....

Thanks, also, Leon....I am sure your grandfather has some stories that he could tell and he's probably passed a lot of them on to you....thanks for the info....

And Steve, I hope you are successful in dating your case, it's tough to do accurately though....

Regards,
Jerry

Yes Leon, thanks for adding that. I was making up my entire statement just based on guess, so it is nice to hear facts.

Tom

So why aren't we collecting case numbers?

Pick a case maker, and we can start one.

Just a starter collection, and see where it takes us, and if we should continue later on.

BUT.............

We need to pick a case that you think has a chance of being a good one for the project.

Anyone want a list of Seth Thomas, Model 5 serial numbers, that I have collected? Not that many, but something. (I even have the photos.

Shiela: I was thinking the same thing but you beat me to the post. The problem I see is that we don't always know if a watch was recased and therefore finding the relationship with the case number and the watch serial number will not be accurate. Also consider that larger jewelers could have purchased a number of different cases but they could have laid around the store for years before someone came in an purchased it.

But, aside from these problem I think it would be a good project. At least we may be able to get a case within a half decade.

Yes, you are correct, however, when you save data you find all kinds of unusual information that just seems to pop up because of the collection.

Just having the numbers with some watch dates, could give us something to look through, and see if there are any consistancies.

Besides, it would be interesting just to see the numbers, and if they are in any kind of order.

A list of watch case #'s with dates may be able to show a few that will match the dates, then you have a pattern. Even if you don't get one, you still will be able to see how they listed cases and their numbers.

Besides, some are too obvious to not know when they were made. Even the Ads would be a good indicator.

I'm willing.

I think if we were to do this we would need to put the data in a data base so it could be searched several different ways & to also make sense of it.

If you all want to give it a try you can email me the info & I will make a data base program for it.

I think we would need all of the info off both the watch & the case.

Tom

I will participate in this program but can't figure out how you will equate case numbers with dates of manufacture....or are you going to set it up that way...?

Are you going to set up the database to encompass all the case mfgr's...?

Actually, Tom, you need to tell us or set the criteria you want & need from all those reporting info to you.... and do you want the info to come to you via your email address or do you want to set up a string here at IHC 185 so that all the members would have the opportunity to participate without looking for your email....I'm not sure which would be the easiest for you since you're doing all the work....

Let us know how you want to set it up and let's go for it....

Regards,
Jerry

Jerry

Let me give it some more thought & also to see if anyone else thinks it can be done & if it would actually be a benifit.

Tom

We would have to start with an assumption, right or wrong, that the watch movement in the case was a close match to the date of the movement. We also need to make an assuption that case manufacturers used sequential numbering.

After we get enough examples we can see the rationship of the date of case to the date of the watch and the number of the case.

We would have capture both the watch serial number and the date of the movement and the case number. After we get a number of entries mismatches will become evident. All entries would have to be sorted by the date of movement. We would have to limit our entries to only cases with movements in them. An empty case does not give us enough information to fit into our initial study.

After we get enough entries we can then fit the empty case into a close year of production.

I will be happy to keep track of the data and sort it. I did work like this for the state of Wisconsin for about 25 years. I could probally keep track of a number of different case manufactureres.

Well Boys, are we opening a can of worms or are we messing with a rats nest....

First of all maybe we will need two or more databases and it doesn't matter to me where the info is maintained....and I agree with both in their own respect as to what is needed for the database and when the info should start to inflow....

Do you think we need to have Lindell's input here because of the magnitude of data that could be generated if all members submitted their watches with case numbers for starters then all the empty cases, then the ongoing info that will be generated on daily basis....it could get huge....

Let's think this through as much as possible, but Ernie, keep your train of thought because that is how we should probably get started and maybe it can be refined as it is built....

Anyway, I think it is a worthwhile project and this could go along with Lindell's project that he is comtemplating....

Regards,
Jerry