I followed a very interesting ebay auction recently. Wonderful Vacheron chronometer grade pocket watch movement with a black dial as a avigator wrist watch with complete us military markings selling for EUR 2500 bidder history... of course protected. now the first thing i noticed was the incapability to spell aviator. surely this would not have happened to the war department. seconly the case seems brand new. thirdly pocket watch wristwatches are always suspicious,..... why stars on the dial etc. If it looks to good to be true it generally is. hope the poor sucker never finds out and remains happy with this phantasy piece. and as far as i remember it does not have the hack functionality either?

http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10677&item=4983336498&rd=1

Before you completely trash this watch Oliver, you might consider this.

J.E. Caldwell & Co. of Philadephia retailed jewelry, silver, watches and the like in Phildadephia from c. 1848 until the middle of the last century. They consistently contracted movements from Patek, V & C, and other top-class watch manufacturers. Sometimes Caldwells would co-sign the movements, sometimes they signed the dials, and sometimes the name of the manufacturer would appear on the dials. One reason why a jeweler such as Caldwell might sign the dial on top-class watches they sold was to avoid paying some sort of sales tax on imports.

Caldwell V&Cs are highly collectable, (see pic of 1920s example below) with many watches going for $3,000 and more (some less, of course).

I would estimate that this watch, being a contract from the Army Air Corps (established in 1926 and remaining thus named until 1935) did not attract that sales tax, since it was a government contract. For that reason, I’m not surprised to see the V & C signature on the dial.

Concerning “Avigator”, you might take a look at some Longines watches that are described with this word (blending ‘aviator’ or ‘aerial’ and ‘navigator’). Think Charles Lindberg for example. Although it looks like a mis-spelling, it isn’t. This word has been around since the 1920s at least, when it was used to describe the navigator in airplane races.

Take a look at the movement on the watch that you mention. The V & C serial # number would put the production of this movement at around 1916, just as the auction claims. The J.E. Caldwell signature is there. This watch could have been part of a military contract any time after 1916 – even some 10 years or more later, which would fit nicely with the first appearance of the word “avigator”.

I’m not sure why the dial would be marked with three stars, except that the five-pointed star has long and strong strong U.S. military connections - in the Confederate army, colonels wore an insignia of three stars, but I don’t think that would be a particular connection on this watch <lol>.

You wrote that “the case seems brand new”. I don’t believe this detracts from the authenticity of the watch. Some time pieces from the 1920s are still in pristine condition, as many on IHC will verify.

I’m not sure why you are suspicious of “pocket watch wrist watches” … this is a wrist watch, pure and simple … not uncommon in the 1920s/30s. … or are you referring to the classification in the auction? ... or the position of the seconds chapter at 9 o'clock?

At EUR 2.510,00, I’m not sure that anyone is indulging in “Phantasy (sic)” and I’m sure that neither the buyer nor seller will regret the deal. As for protected IDs, Jeff Hess of this chapter has given some compelling reasons why he runs private auctions.

Here is a Caldwell V&C movement that seems to date back to around 1902. I've seen somewhere that J.E. Caldwell were putting their name on V&Cs earlier than that ... maybe as early as 1890.

Whether the V&C movement by itself is worth the amount it sold for is a question I leave to others as I am not an expert on them, however, the seller in this auction was either unaware or purposely lying (I always try to thing people are the former though when people go to the effort to hide bidders names it always puts a doubt in my mind that they could be the latter) when he or she claimed that it is a WW I vintage military avigation watch. In his/her description the seller writes:

"RARITÄT ! Seltene Vacheron & Constantin "Avigation Hack Watch"
Flieger Herrenuhr der amerikanischen Streitkräfte
im 1. Weltkrieg von 1916"

The data on the case back shows that the case, at least, does not date to 1916. The order numbers show that it is a Type A-7 ordered by the Army Air Corps in 1935 which means it would have been delivered to the Army Air Corps sometime around 1935 or within a couple of years afterwards.
The Army Air Corps was created in 1926 and lasted until 1941 when it was renamed the Army Air Force. This means that there is a circa 1916 movement that was imported by a fancy Philadelphia jewelry store in a circa 1937/38 case that was provided to the U.S. Army under a large contract. I agree with Oliver that this just doesn't make any sense - it appears to me to be a franken-watch.

OK ... I'm beginining to feel uncomfortable about the case. No case screws and no case-screw marks. How did the hack get in there? ... there are no detailed pics of the lever slot, although on one pic it seems to be fairly professionally done.

Is that your "Phantasy" Oliver ... the matching of the case and the rest of it?

its a bit of everything. i do believe you are absolutly right about the movement. you can see that it was made for a pocket watch (retaining screw sockets emty) it is obviously in a case that is of modern design. i do not have any evidence for any of the wwi airforces issuing wrist watches. the very large dial aviation watches (5,5cm) really came in the 30's. the same goes for the black dial. i don't recall any vacheron chronometer movements being hack watches. contrary to all other period military watches the dial also contains decoration (stars) the lumination does not apear to be period and i would have loved to have a better look at the signature on the dial. lastly, if this had been a government contract this watch would surely have been produced more than once. i do not want to imply deliberate fraud here but if i had been the seller i would have been a bit clearer about the pitfalls. you buy what you see so good luck to the avigator.... ps i am sure the pics will disapear shortly

I would like to use this thread to post similar items. for example every second german stopwatch gets a budgy (eagle) plus m number and is then sold as submarine usage torpedo stopper... lemania stopwatches all with brand new bal stamps are 'new old stock' luftwaffe stop watches and i have never seen a used example with the bal stamp.... in many of these cases there might just be a suspicion but i would love to discuss this.

Lindell,

Why do you think 'Avigation'should not have the G, when 'avigator' and 'avigation' was an established word by the 1920s? I agree, it looks a bit strange though.

If the E and F of whatever made this lettering were not functioning properly, they could have printed as more like an I. This is consistent with the way SPI CII CATION and MIR have been printed. (But is that a stamp? It looks more like engraving to me)

The VACHERON & CONSTANTIN lettering is in a different point/size, so that theory does not apply to that line, which I imagine was stamped on at a different time.

Your other observations about the period after C, the spacing of the letters, and the type of case certainly make this look suspicious.

In which case ... do you think the dial has been faked? and, what kind of case do you think this movement and dial would have appeared in originally?

Sorry, Lindell, I didn't see your other posts when I was writing mine.

Please ignore most of my questions. Thanks for the discussion, Oliver, Jim and Lindell; I was probably up a blind alley Sorry to take up the bandwidth. I'm always ready to learn, so it hasn't been a complete waste of time for me.

Hi Glyn. Please don't appologize for stating your views - I think that this has been a very helpful discussion and I have learned from you about some things like Caldwell's importing V&C movements. Positive and constructive discussion and sharing of information is what a website like this should be all about.

Hi Oliver. I would like to hear more about some of the forgeries and phantasies that you come across and that are polluting the watch collecting hobby. This seems to be a rapidly increasing problem, especially in wrist watches, as the popularity of milititary timepieces is burgeoning and prices are going ever higher on certain items.

This is a rare one a kind Vacheron and Constantin that it was cased in the 1930's or 1990's for WWI duty. That's why the price is so high. It had to be taken back in a time machine at great expense and is truly a historical watch.

Happy time-avigatin' ...

http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=13412&item=4985744473&rd=1

Here is another one. At first look a rare early Minerva chronometer. Wempe... used Thomen works but then again, they may have used others. The quality of the movement coinciding with an early dial is not good enough, some of the retention screws seem odd. The engraving RLM is awkward. In the favour of the seller is the offer to exchange within 2 weeks and in another auction he is clearly labeling an IWC as a marriage. Anonymus bidding on the other hand is not in his favour. By the way I am not condemming this watch... I just have some doubts.

http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=13412&item=4993065906&rd=1
Here is something else... bidder id hidden. Dial marked Lange und Soehne, mint I do not recall them making these types of military watches, obviously the Wagner with the Tutima 'Raumnutzwerk is quite reknown.... but Lange & Soehne??? Again, does not mean that this one is wrong but I do have ;o) some doubts.

http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=9245&item=4991815767&rd=1

Very interesting one, bidder id hidden, wempe build but not wempe marked (would be using a thommen movement).... no number on movement but movement number in lid, crown looks wrong.... most probably not a wempe but what is it? is it a genuine mistake or a good manufacture????

Thanks Oliver. I am certainly not any kind of expert on watches and I am hoping to learn from the experts in this forum, but that Lange und Soehne watch just doesn't look right to me. Am I being too critical when I wonder why would a well respected watchmaker stuff a 1920s or 1930s era octagonal wristwatch movement into a round case? Are they known for doing this on their regular watches or other military watches?

I suppose one can argue that wartime shortages created all kinds of bodging together of whatever was at hand to meet the urgent needs, but I get very tired of that argument when it is applied to every military timepiece or other military collectable that is "not right" such as medals or badges or whatever when the large majority of the things that are "not right" are either frankenwatches assembled after the fact or have markings or major parts that are outright forgeries.

Hello Jim, interestingly enough the company Wagner used just such a movement in a relatively rare 'standard' military wristwatch. These are relatively sought after in their own right. (see pictures) now to turn a Glashuette Urofa movement =Tutima into a Lange watch is a bit far fetched I recon some poor sod will pay USD 1000+ for an incomplete Wagner with a replacement dial.

here is a picture of the urofa movement in the wagner case. on the wempe watch the hands are wrong (in my opinion) as well as the crown and possibly the movement. it has certainly not much to do with the wempe/thommen watches but maybe someone who knows movements better can comment here.

Thanks Oliver, as always, interesting and insightfull.

Best regards,

Greg