I am wondering if anyone has seen a movement like this before. I have been observing it work so that I can get it together after it is apart.

It has a lot of levers and cams than I have see before. I can't see a reason for the duplicate rack. You can see a pin under the gathering pallet that lifts the upper rack so it can move.

Let me know what you think.

Rick

Here is another view.

How many strike hammers are there, one on each side or a different arrangement? Since it appears to have three trains one of them must drive a quarter strike of some sort. The ratchet wheels, their retainers, the clicks, and the click springs look French, but the spring loaded pin on the rack where it rests against the snail and the motion work wheels don't look like French work. That post just below the rack with a bent pin through it looks strange, does it protrude from the plate far enough to be the arbor for a second gathering pallet?

Does it have a makers mark/name?
Can you identify the parts I've marked?
Are the racks "one part"?
greg

Ahhh! John... I thought it looked familiar... one rack is for the strike and the other is for the quarter hours.

greg

It must do a lot of dinging on the quarter hours, since a Grande Sonniere strike quarter rack shouldn't have as many teeth as either rack does; it has to strike no more than four times for the quarters.

I have not had the movement apart but it does say Germany on the back. I can take more pictures tomorrow night after I get back home.

I will also validate the parts you have marked but I believe I describe them correctly below. I have studdied this movement for awhile now.

There are hammers on only one side of the movement, the right side as we are looking at the front of the movement.

The two racks are connected.

Under the gathering pallet there is a pin that raises the lever attached to the strike movement - on the right side of the movement. It is the lever that has the curley cue on the end on the right side of the upper picture. I don't know the name of the lever - I'm sure it must have one - but the bottom if it rides on the cam attached to the minute wheel.

The gathering pallet is shaped like a comma rather than a kidney and the pin on the underside raises this lever at the same time that the upper pin on the gathering pallet raises the normal rack. This lever has a pin - you marked it in blue - attached to the lever that disengages the upper rack at the same time as the upper pin is moving the lower rack.

As I recall the yellow mark is pointing to the cam that goes straight through to the back of the movement and serves as the pinion for the hour strike lever.

The red mark points to the gathering pallet, which is comma in shape and at rest is in the same position as a comma.

I do appreciate the input. I wish I could get good pictures of the cams and levers on the inside working.

Thanks,

Rick

Could the second rack be used to hold the position of the rack so that it does not slip back once the gathering pallet has moved it up one notch?

That was my thought but I guess I don't understand why that would be seen as a need. This a heavy movement designed to be sitting on a mount inside the case, certainly not moved.

I find the design interesting and out of place if that is the purpose.

As the clock strikes, the rack tail is raised from the snail. There is usually an arm that keeps the rack from falling back onto the snail. Without this it will strike until it is wound down. I can't tell from the pictures if an arm is in place for this movement, but I can't see it. Perhaps the second set of notches catches the rack to prevent the rack tail from dropping back on the snail. Heaviness of the movement or physically moving the clock is not part of what I was thinking about.

quote:

one rack is for the strike and the other is for the quarter hours

The first rack is for the strike(red mark)...the strike side is arrested. During the chiming sequences, the second rack(blue mark) is for the quarter hours.

I can't explain it in depth as others can...#1 its been awhile. #2 I don't have the vocabulary

This one is a Keinzle...from a "box clock"/ wall clock with beveled glass sides and front.
greg

Is this perhaps a petit sonniere strike, striking only the quarters, one, two, or three taps from one rack and then striking the hour on the hour without striking the fourth quarter? Since both racks are made together, the two would have to fall twice each quarter for grande sonniere striking, one fall to count the quarters, and another to count the hours. It seems really complicated compared to the usuall setup with hammers on both sides one for quarters controlled by the right hand (from the front) train and the other on the left side for the hours.

Rick,
Can you post a picture of the back of the movement?
And a side shot between the plates would also be good.

I mis-spoke...the strike side is arrested until the top of the hour. When the rack falls so that it will chime for the hour the strike train is then unloosed.

greg

I have talked with a freind who is familiar with this movement. The twin rack is just a fancy way of doing what most movements do with one rack. Actually tthis is one rack, just split into two levels. One level is for the gathering pallet to move the rack, the other is a keeper to stop the rack from falling back on the snail. Seems like a lot of extra engineering for something accomplished much simpler in other movements, but it does make for an interesting looking movement.

What does the movement do on the quarter hours? If all the gizmos on the front control the hour strike what does the third train do? There appear to be a bunch of pivots and arbors on the right side.

Sorry it has taken me so long to reply but I am now back home. The 3rd train, on the right in the images, does control the Westminister Chimes. Note the upper lever that has 2 arms.

When lower lever, Purpleline, that rides on the snail raises up on 3 of the quarters it does not raise enough to lift the pin circled by the light blue circle so the racks do not move. This pin will raise te bar highlighted by a pink line that controls the pin on the upper rack in red and end of the lever in yellow. On these three quarter hours there will only be progressive Westminster chimes.

On the 4th quarter, the hour strike quarter, the snail raises the purple lever up to the point where the red pin on the upper lever allows the rack to fall. On each rotation of the gathering pallet the end of the upper lever, circled in yellow, is raised by a pin on the back sside of the gathering pallet which raises the pin that constrains the upper rack. This allows the rack to move in syck with the gathering pallet.

Pictures will help.

Note, this image is post cleaning.

Rick

Note the tear drop shaped gathering pallet stopped by the rack pin, circled in red.

If you look closely you can see the pin (circled in light yellow) on the underside of the gathering pallet, blue arrow, lifting the end of the lever that raises the pin to allow the rack to move.

You asked for any other identification marks, here are the marks on the back of the case.

A shot of the interior of the front plate.

Between the plates, Chime side

Some of the images are before cleaning and some are after, I'll bet you can pick out which fit into each category.

In cleaning the clock I determined one very good reason for it not to work. The time winding arbor had become separated from it's mainspring hook so you could wind it all day long but the mainspring never moved an inch. I repaired it with a pressure fitting and hope that will hold.

You should see the case, thankfully I have some woodworking skills. This project will use them all.

Rick,
Thanks. It's not the usual layout for Westminster chime controls that I have seen.