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Welcome Aboard IHC185™ Internet Horology Club 185 IHC185™ Discussion Site Main Page Open to the World RESEARCH FORUMS Illinois Watch Company Research Forum Technical differences between 161 Type IIE, 161A Type IIB and 161A Type IIP
Internet Horology Club 185 IHC185™ Discussion Site Main Page Open to the World RESEARCH FORUMS Illinois Watch Company Research Forum Technical differences between 161 Type IIE, 161A Type IIB and 161A Type IIPGo | New Topic | Find-Or-Search | Notify | Tools | Reply to Post | |
| IHC Member 1101 Site Moderator  |
Daniel, The Elinvar balance and hairspring was a major upgrade to the performance of the Bunn special 60 HOUR series that was brought in by the Hamilton factory. All the Elinvar models were the same as the Bunn Special Type III 60 Hour except for the balance assembly, verbage, and plate finishes. They were really the same thing as the 163 series except for the 2 extra jewels. Steve | |||
| IHC Life Member |
Thanks Steve for clarifying this for me. I knew the 161 and 163 varied only by the extra 2 jewels for the barrel, which doesn't affect the accuracy of a watch at all. 21-jewels have been used in Observatory Chronometers for decades and for good reason. It makes the 161 a great "value" compared to the 163 when looking for a timekeeper. (Rarity/exclusivity is obviously another story and a key factor in the value formula). Best Regards, Dan | |||
the 161 type IE was the first elinvar. charlie | ||||
| IHC Life Member |
Hi Charlie, I didn't know there was a 161 Type IE, I thought the first Elinvar version of the 161 was the Type IIE (I did notice that the first 163 with elinvar is classified as a Type IE and a 163 Type IIE version also existed, but the 161 only has a Type IIE, with no Type IE.) I was primarily interested in knowing if there were any other technical changes made when going from the 161 Type IIE to the 161A Type IIB to the 161 Type IIP. Was it just a name and pattern change? I know the gold jewel settings were replaced with pressed jewels when the 161A Type IIP transitioned to the 161B version. Best Regards, Dan | |||
| IHC President Life Member  |
Daniel, From a technical standpoint, what Steve posted above in response to your question is entirely correct, all of the 161 Elinvars are indeed mechanically the same watch. The advancement of Elinvar introduced a new, solid balance wheel and Elinvar anti-magnetic rust-resistant hairspring but even when they later added three concentric rings on the Type II B and Type II P it was just another styling change, nothing new "under the hood" as it were.  I find parallels between the watch and automobile industries particularly interesting, in both fields they often "sell the sizzle rather than the steak" so that in fact they were then and even now marketing-driven to a far greater extent than many of us will ever realize.By the way, most of the "type-this-or-that" designations we use were made up by the late William Meggers in order to differentiate between what are most often superficial marking differences, they are not factory designations and they can at times be confusing. One of the points I find amusing among the 163 "types" are the 163 Type I R being listed after the Type I although in reality all the "Type I R" were manufactured first. Apparently, the reason Meggers used "IR" was because the number "163" is in the opposite position, reversed on the two variants, the "IR" being unusual. What you said about the 21 versus 23-Jewels points to the fact that purely from a value standpoint the only difference between them on Bunn Specials are jewels on either end of the Motor-Barrel which may make winding a bit smoother. One could also argue that the 23 might wind-down a bit smoother with less strain on the mainspring, but the pricing differential when new would have probably been difficult to justify. So, this may be yet another illustration of marketing tactics prevailing and the smoothest thing about these may have really been the slick salesmanship. Finally, on the 161 and 163 movements we do have some oddities, there are "one-of-a-kind" items that have surfaced including those shown at numbers (5) and (6) on page 125 of the "Illinois Encyclopedia" which are peculiar. Whether such things that surface were "created" by factory error, later by service personnel, or someone putting a movement together out of previously disparate components (See: "163A Mismarked?" topic) remains to be seen. An exception to that is the "161B" with pressed jewels, those were re-worked by Hamilton during the 1940s in their Lancaster facility, the "why" of this and other things they did will likely forever remain a mystery. Lindell  | |||
| IHC Vice President Pitfalls Moderator IHC Life Member  |
Well said Lin, that sheds some light on a complicated subject! Best Regards, Ed | |||
| IHC Member 1101 Site Moderator |
Also interesting is that although the 161 Type II E was classified by Meggers as a Model 15 which should have had the Interrupted (fifth) rayed pattern, it had the demaskeening of the Model 14, The Rayed (fourth) pattern....adding some more confusion. Steve | |||
| IHC Life Member |
Thank you Lin, Ed and Steve! Its this type of minutia, detail, and at times quirkiness that makes collecting so interesting! BR, Dan | |||
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Welcome Aboard IHC185™ Internet Horology Club 185 IHC185™ Discussion Site Main Page Open to the World RESEARCH FORUMS Illinois Watch Company Research Forum Technical differences between 161 Type IIE, 161A Type IIB and 161A Type IIP
Internet Horology Club 185 IHC185™ Discussion Site Main Page Open to the World RESEARCH FORUMS Illinois Watch Company Research Forum Technical differences between 161 Type IIE, 161A Type IIB and 161A Type IIP©2002-2023 Internet Horology Club 185™ - Lindell V. Riddle President - All Rights Reserved Worldwide
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