I have a 1914 Bunn Special (s/n 2688191). My question is on an arrows in DS dial should the "Illinois" be arched or straight? I thought I saw here, now can't find, that the arched Illinois was after 1924.

Thanks,
Michael

Your early Model 9 should have "arrows-in" 5-minute markers and Bold Arabic hour numerals, with Plain Bold Arabic (straight-line) ILLINOIS signature (see photo).

The Plain Block Letter (arched) ILLINOIS signature started phasing in about 1917 and continued to the end of Model 9 production in 1924.



Correct 1914 Bunn Special Bold Arabic Dial

Thanks Edward. Would the one attached be correct also as the Illinois is straight (though not the same style dial) ?

Thanks again for the information,

Michael

That dial has a slightly later (bolder) version of the Bold Arabic hour font, but I'd say "close enough" since it still has the straight-line signature and is double-sunk.

Great, thanks Edward. I see a seller (unfortunately not on 185) that seems to have both available for similar price and condition. I will try to get the one you showed as correct first and if I can’t will try for the “close enough” one.

Thank you again for the advice!

Michael

Managed to find a correct Bunn dial, hopefully as nice as advertised! Well shall see once I get it in my hands.

Edward,

Just saw this in Meggers book.page 43. Looks like an arrows in with an “arched” Illinois for a Bunn Special from an add dated 1914. Based on this could my 1914 Bunn dial with arrows in and arched Illinois actually be correct also after all? Not disputing just asking here.

Thanks,

This is very interesting. I'm sure it will turn the thinking around a bit.

I can't wait to see what others have to say.

Well, I can't argue with "The Blue Illinois Bible" . . . that's the earliest documented example of that dial signature I've ever seen. I even checked the movement numbers shown in the pictures, those are 1914 watches alright.

This is how we piece together approximate timelines for what is correct relating to various features of these watches, drawing the best conclusions we can from the available evidence as we go along.

The best evidence we have apart from research based on company documents, the watches themselves and their original packaging & paperwork is period advertising. When a new piece of evidence shows up, we have to adjust the overall picture accordingly.

I can't see the s/n as I don't have the actual book just the electronic version. I can see that is has the same "Fish Scale Damasking" as mine. If I may ask, what s/n does it appear to be in the photo Edward? Just curious...

Thanks

Sorry, misunderstood. Your talking about model numbers here not s/n.

Regards,

The watch pictured on the left is #2575893, which the serial number table lists as a 16-size 23-jewel Sangamo Special Model 9, as the movement picture shows. The watch pictured on the right is #2606246, which the serial number table lists as a 16-size 23-jewel Bunn Special Model 9, as the movement picture shows.

You could see all this in the book picture on page 43 if you had one of the earlier printings.

Thanks Edward

So what is the verdict.

If you compare the page 43 drawing to an actual dial with "arched" Illinois signature, it doesn't match up very well at all (see comparison photo). The signature is much closer to the outer chapter in the drawing than it is on the actual dial and the "7" is different. This may have been due to a goof on the part of the artist or it may have been an early artist's rendition of a new dial design that wasn't yet in production.

Given the accuracy of the parts of the drawing we can check, right down to the damaskeening pattern, I would strongly discount the artist's goof theory in favor of the far greater likelihood of the preproduction artist's rendition just being inaccurate.

When did the arched signature begin? We'll never know for sure, but I'd say this one piece of evidence is something less than proof positive that the arched ILLINOIS dial signature was in production in 1914.



Dial Signature Comparison Photo:

Meggers & Ehrhardt Page 43 Drawing of 1914 Dial on the Left ------ Actual Arched Signature Dial on the Right