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Fairly Unusual Pocket Watch "Click" to Login or Register 
posted
I've just been asked to see if I can find out anything about this watch and I noticed it is certainly not common in my opinion. The escapement is unusual I believe it is a spring detent but am not sure as I haven't seen one before, if anyone could confirm or deny this it would be great. I've posted a slow motion YouTube clip ( Here) and the pictures should help. The case is a beautiful 18 karat one with detailed designs which seem to include some type of bird, maybe a phoenix. The dial is just as nice being extremely intricate and well made. The watch did come in a Longines box but I can't find any markings. I apologise because the pictures I've taken don't really do the watch justice, but they were the best I could take at the time. Any information at all would be appreciated. Thanks,
Joe
 
Posts: 78 | Location: Nottingham in the United Kingdom | Registered: March 30, 2013
posted
Front of the watch.

 
Posts: 78 | Location: Nottingham in the United Kingdom | Registered: March 30, 2013
posted
Back of the watch.

 
Posts: 78 | Location: Nottingham in the United Kingdom | Registered: March 30, 2013
posted
Dial

 
Posts: 78 | Location: Nottingham in the United Kingdom | Registered: March 30, 2013
posted
Movement.

 
Posts: 78 | Location: Nottingham in the United Kingdom | Registered: March 30, 2013
posted
This one shows my reasoning for saying it's a spring detent. The small hairspring in the first picture seems to fit with what I know, as does the shape of the escape wheel teeth.

 
Posts: 78 | Location: Nottingham in the United Kingdom | Registered: March 30, 2013
posted
Hi Joe

Pretty nice watches you come along .

The escapement is indeed a detent escapement but it is the pivot detent escapement (or pivoted detent escapement).
It is a bit of confusing:

- a pivot detent escapement has a pivoted lever, a balanced rocker moving on the pivot and hold by a small 'hairspring' to allow a proper locking/unlocking.

example

- a spring detent escapement is 'springy' itself, a long thin piece of spring steel fixed at the very end opposing the balance wheel.

example

the escape wheels are the same in both cases.

swiss made ca 1880

Regards
Gerald
 
Posts: 742 | Location: Wertheim in Germany | Registered: February 21, 2009
posted
Thank you Gerald, that makes sense and I was thinking about the same in terms of age, if you recognise anything else then I'd be happy to hear, thanks,
Joe
 
Posts: 78 | Location: Nottingham in the United Kingdom | Registered: March 30, 2013
IHC Life Member
Picture of Ethan Lipsig
posted
I have a very similar pivot detent chronometer: same sort of fancy 18k case, same sort of fancy embossed dial, same style of movement, same lack of signature. Mine likely is in better condition than yours, but yours still is a very nice watch.

You don't show a photo of the cuvette. My watch's cuvette does not identify the maker but it does say "Geneve. Chronometre a Renversement. No. 63488." After this, there is a symbol of a left facing key. "Chronometre a Renversement" means "detent chronometre." What does the cuvette of your watch say, if anything?
 
Posts: 1414 | Location: Pasadena, California USA | Registered: November 11, 2005
IHC Life Member
Picture of Ethan Lipsig
posted
Here is a photo of my watch's case.

 
Posts: 1414 | Location: Pasadena, California USA | Registered: November 11, 2005
IHC Life Member
Picture of Ethan Lipsig
posted
Here's its dial.

 
Posts: 1414 | Location: Pasadena, California USA | Registered: November 11, 2005
IHC Life Member
Picture of Ethan Lipsig
posted
Here's its movement.

 
Posts: 1414 | Location: Pasadena, California USA | Registered: November 11, 2005
posted
Sorry I haven't replied I've been away from my computer for a while, your watch is very similar especially in terms of the dial, the cuvette does say something but I can't quite remember what, although I'm sure it isnt that. I'll try to get a picture and post it over the next few days.
 
Posts: 78 | Location: Nottingham in the United Kingdom | Registered: March 30, 2013
posted
Here's the photo, sorry it took too long, like I said it isn't the same as yours and "Remontoir" just means it is key wind. I did also notice what looks like a makers mark in the back of the case, possibly RF, does your have anything like that? Ill try to post of photo of that soon too. Thanks,
Joe.

 
Posts: 78 | Location: Nottingham in the United Kingdom | Registered: March 30, 2013
IHC Life Member
Picture of Ethan Lipsig
posted
The case of my watch just has serial number and 18k markings, but no maker's mark. The cuvette on my watch is quite different from the cuvette on your watch. See the photo below.

("Remontoir" does not mean "key wind"; it's meaning has evovled, but most lately was used to refer to keyless stem winding.)

 
Posts: 1414 | Location: Pasadena, California USA | Registered: November 11, 2005
posted
Yes I can see the differences, but I still think they likely originate from the same place, and sorry about the remontoir mistake I meant to write what you said, I may not be experienced but I can still recognize a key wind Wink. Thanks,
Joe
 
Posts: 78 | Location: Nottingham in the United Kingdom | Registered: March 30, 2013
posted
Thought you may be interested to know that my watch has been identified as a longines calibre 20R by their brand heritage team.
 
Posts: 78 | Location: Nottingham in the United Kingdom | Registered: March 30, 2013
IHC Life Member
Picture of Ethan Lipsig
posted
quote:
longines calibre 20R


I can't find anything out about that calibre, but I did find this Lequin-Yersin, but it has different winding gears.

My guess is that some entity made the ebauche of these pivot detent chronometers, and different watchmakers finished them to their own specifications. I don't think of Longines as being an ebauche maker, but perhaps it was.
 
Posts: 1414 | Location: Pasadena, California USA | Registered: November 11, 2005
posted
You may well be right, but another difference is that mine is marked as 20J, but the one you linked to is 19J. I'm having trouble finding anything about that calibre too, although the longines team also specified that the watch I have was purchased in 1871 by their technical director Jacques David.

Whoever made these watches clearly did it to a high quality, and if I were you I might consider writing to Longines and asking about your watch as well, just in case.
 
Posts: 78 | Location: Nottingham in the United Kingdom | Registered: March 30, 2013
posted
Joe

That's good news that your watch was traced to the manufacturer and dated as well !

In the late 60's eaerly 70's the company that later became Longines was in a 'transition-state' from the old system of finishing raw movements from others to the modern system of a complete making of watches with the help of machines. Jacques David visited the Philadelphia exhibition and examined the 'american system' of watchmaking. With his insights and the vision of Ernest Fracillon Longines raised from a small traditional manufacture to a modern company.
I agree with Ethan that they finished the given watch using an ebauche of another (unknown) source.

Regards
Gerald
 
Posts: 742 | Location: Wertheim in Germany | Registered: February 21, 2009
posted
Thanks Gerald, do you know anything about the calibre 20R because I'm finding it extremely difficult to find any information about it, and you always seem to know where to look. Thanks,
Joe
 
Posts: 78 | Location: Nottingham in the United Kingdom | Registered: March 30, 2013
posted
If anywhere then in the 'bible' of Longines: a book named 'At the Heart of Industrial Vocation' by Patrick Lindner, published on occasion the 175 anniversary of Longines.
I don't have the book or acces to it and I have no information about 20R.

Gerald
 
Posts: 742 | Location: Wertheim in Germany | Registered: February 21, 2009
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