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BALL & CO 18s Hamilton 17j BLE very early SN#28632 "Click" to Login or Register 
posted
Hi All, Hope everyone is having a great summer. I've posted a few pic's of my 18s Ball & CO 17j Hamilton Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers BLE SN# 28632. I just had it cleaned and it's keeping fantastic time. The dial has a few hairlines and an edge chip at 1:00 but still faces up beatifully. The signed BLE movement has a few jewelers slips but otherwise is in excellent + condition. The pierced hands are also in excellent condition along with the correct seconds hand. The silverode Philadelphia watch case appears to be original to the watch. Per Bill Knapps Ball & CO database this Hamilton BLE is one of the earliest recorded from what I can tell. Enjoy, let me know whta you think. regards, Joe

 
Posts: 311 | Location: New Jersey in the USA | Registered: February 13, 2011
posted
more images

 
Posts: 311 | Location: New Jersey in the USA | Registered: February 13, 2011
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more

 
Posts: 311 | Location: New Jersey in the USA | Registered: February 13, 2011
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face

 
Posts: 311 | Location: New Jersey in the USA | Registered: February 13, 2011
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more face

 
Posts: 311 | Location: New Jersey in the USA | Registered: February 13, 2011
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even more

 
Posts: 311 | Location: New Jersey in the USA | Registered: February 13, 2011
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back of case

 
Posts: 311 | Location: New Jersey in the USA | Registered: February 13, 2011
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inside case cover

 
Posts: 311 | Location: New Jersey in the USA | Registered: February 13, 2011
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movement

 
Posts: 311 | Location: New Jersey in the USA | Registered: February 13, 2011
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sorry about spelling Bill Kapp's name incorrectly. SORRY BILL!
 
Posts: 311 | Location: New Jersey in the USA | Registered: February 13, 2011
posted
Joseph,

Congrats!

I think those Early BLE's were done in the Ball Co finishing room. Note the flat 3 dials that are seen on all my data base examples. Hamilton records seem to indicate that it was shipped as a 999B which I have always believed to be Private Label or Ball and Co ORRS.

If it had been finished at Hamilton, we would expect the curly 3 on the dial.

You can prove or disprove this theory by giving us a pic of the underside of the barrel bridge.

I am betting on no serial number.

happy hunting
 
Posts: 881 | Location: Arroyo Grande, California USA | Registered: February 22, 2004
posted
Hi Bill, I pulled the main spring plate and you were correct, there is no serial # at all which confirms it was finished at the Ball Factory. I tried removing the main spring plate from my 21j BRT SN 42622 but I could not get it off, nothing I have is sticky enough to pull it up. Anyway, I attached a pic of the underside of 17j BLE main spring plate. regards Joe

 
Posts: 311 | Location: New Jersey in the USA | Registered: February 13, 2011
posted
Joseph,

Thank you very much! You have to remember also that Ball had Howard BLE's in stock almost to the end of the 19th century. It seems to me that all the early Hamilton/Ball ORC and BLE sightings are most likely non factory installed barrel bridges.

Congrats again,

It would have been awful if the bridge had serial numbers of a different watch, but the later style dial seen on most of the BLE's convinced me that it was probably installed by Ball at a later date, much as he used the plugs on the 16 size brotherhoods.

There is the problem of collectors having found access to plugs and bridges decades ago, but in your case the dial kinda confirms its bein a Ball installation.

Your BRT 21J sunburst damasceening leads me to believe it is a factory job. If you ever get a pic under the barrel bridge, that would absolutely confirm it.

hapy hunting,
 
Posts: 881 | Location: Arroyo Grande, California USA | Registered: February 22, 2004
posted
I'll get some sticker tape Bill and go back at the BRT and let ya know. regards,, Joe
 
Posts: 311 | Location: New Jersey in the USA | Registered: February 13, 2011
IHC President
Life Member
Picture of Lindell V. Riddle
posted

Joe,

Be careful and be certain the movement is powered-down completely before removing anything.

What Bill is calling a "barrel bridge" and you call a "main spring plate" is the "barrel cover" that I referred to and explained on March 2nd and 17th in in one of your previous topics...

CLICK FOR: "New 18s Ball Purchase"
___________________________________________

As I said on March 2, 2011 at 15:10

Your movement looks right, if you want to confirm its various components that option is available beginning with the barrel cover. Let the movement run down completely and then carefully remove the two retaining screws, if the cover is original to the movement you will likely see the corresponding numbers on the under-side. Below this post you will see a picture of the cover from 644007 as a basis for comparison. Many of us pull the dial and check the pillar plate as well as the balance bridge and other numbered components.

If there are no numbers on your barrel cover, that is an indication that yours may have been put together to fill an order, some movements are that way. As Bill pointed out above that was often done, in fact the 16-size Ball-Waltham movements featured a replaceable brass plug so that the folks at Ball in Cleveland could change from ORRS to a Brotherhood allowing them to fill an order for one particular marking or another. What you do not want to find are numbers from an altogether different movement.

___________________________________________

At that time I made some additional suggestions about hands and the fact you had a somewhat later case on your 42622 movement. I also supplied images of a similar movement with the correct numbers and provided several links that I felt would be helpful to you.

Looks like you now have acquired another Brotherhood, congratulations! Your latest one is 28632 which is of course a bit earlier and has B of LE markings. It is important to point out the earliest Brotherhoods were Ball-Howards, they were produced beginning in 1893 and they are considered to be among the most desirable of all Ball Watches. You will find images and information about them here...

Ball-Howard Watches, Distinctive 1890s Beauty

The earliest Ball-Hamilton Brotherhoods were produced in 1895 and one of the very first 13050 is shown here...

Early Ball-Hamilton 18-size Images

Number 28755 which is an ORC from the same time-period as your 28632 is shown within that same topic.

The last 18-size Brotherhoods were in 1910 and one of the very last, number 644083 is shown here...

Later Ball-Hamilton 18-size Images

You may find the story of 644007 shown there to be interesting as it indicates how slowly they sold.

Hope this additional information is of help.

Lindell

Wink
 
Posts: 10553 | Location: Northeastern Ohio in the USA | Registered: November 19, 2002
posted
Thanks Lindell, you and Boll are always of great help. I realized the Ball Howards were the earliest Brotherhoods and the Hamilton Brotherhood #13050 is a BLF, so I was really stoked to see the BLE I aquired was one of the earliest Hamilton BLE's recorded by Bill. I am also VERY pleased to say I finally found a complete set of plumb pierced hands including the correct seconds hand for my BRT SN 42622 but have not got around to taking new pictures yet. Would you care to see new pic's of the BRT with plumb pierced hands? As for the BRT case the BRT resides in, although it is not the original case I'll just have to suffer with that, but I can't imagine another "incorrect" case I could be so pleased to leave the BRT movement reside in. If it were any other "incorrect" case I'd be bummed out. Let me know if you'd like pic's of the BRT, P.S. I've been in touch with the old man I aquired the BRT from which is where I got the plumb pierced hands, I finally got him to break out his "parts" collection and I'd love to aquire some of the 18s ball dials he has including the MINT Ball & Co ORRS dial with the sweeping tail in the "A" in the word Cleveland. He also had a set of mint 18s ball blue spade hands for the later 18s Ball ORRS movements. But he seems he has to be in the right mood to see this stuff and I have to catch him in that "mood". I have no idea why he took the pierced hands off the BRT to begin with other than he is getting way old. regards,, Joe
 
Posts: 311 | Location: New Jersey in the USA | Registered: February 13, 2011
posted
Ha, I spelled Bill's name wrong "again" but this time it was a typo on his first name.
Oh, the gentleman I aquired the BRT from seems have an extreme emotional attachment to his collection and although he is selling some to pay for his "elderly care" I believe he will keep alot of it to the very end as a "comfort factor" which I understand. If that happens his son will inherit whatever is left of his fathers collection which he will sell in a heart beat most likely on e-bay. At this point, I really would like a few of the 18s Ball ORRS dials he has and a few parts like "regulator springs" for 18s Balls and the later 18s Ball hands. He has a 1st run and a 3rd run Ball & Co along with a few single rollers marked The Ball Watch Co, not sure if he will let them go anytime soon. regards Joe.
 
Posts: 311 | Location: New Jersey in the USA | Registered: February 13, 2011
posted
Lindell

Its hard to research these Brotherhood's when I don't have any actual examples in my possession to study.

I have to rely on others such as Joseph and you for observations.

Could you check the barrel plate on 28755 to confirm my theory that None of the BLE or ORC should have serial numbers underneath?

I wonder what the cut off point might be for the other Brotherhoods? Factory records stop using the 999 A B C D designations around the 42xxx range, but the brakewheel damasceened models must be factory produced! Can you or any of the other Ball Brotherhood collectors check for the numbers?

I would expect 13050 to have its numbers under the barrel bridge and any other BLF or BRT thru the 28xxx range
.
I realize this is a somewhat sensitive area, but unless they discover mismatched numbers, this should not cast aspersions on their provenance.

happy hunting
 
Posts: 881 | Location: Arroyo Grande, California USA | Registered: February 22, 2004
posted
Hi Bill, no worries I WILL get that barrel plate off my BRT sn42622, maybe this weekend, if not by next week, I'm just a little busy with a patio right now and I need to get stickier tape to stick to the barrel plate in order to lift it off.

again, thank you both for all the info you provide!!!! Best Regards and have a great wekend. Joe
 
Posts: 311 | Location: New Jersey in the USA | Registered: February 13, 2011
posted
Hi Bill, Hi Lindell, I posted pic's of my BRT barrel plate (both sides)under my BRT post from March 2011. Enjoy
 
Posts: 311 | Location: New Jersey in the USA | Registered: February 13, 2011
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