Hi All, Hope everyone is having a great summer. I've posted a few pic's of my 18s Ball & CO 17j Hamilton Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers BLE SN# 28632. I just had it cleaned and it's keeping fantastic time. The dial has a few hairlines and an edge chip at 1:00 but still faces up beatifully. The signed BLE movement has a few jewelers slips but otherwise is in excellent + condition. The pierced hands are also in excellent condition along with the correct seconds hand. The silverode Philadelphia watch case appears to be original to the watch. Per Bill Knapps Ball & CO database this Hamilton BLE is one of the earliest recorded from what I can tell. Enjoy, let me know whta you think. regards, Joe

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sorry about spelling Bill Kapp's name incorrectly. SORRY BILL!

Joseph,

Congrats!

I think those Early BLE's were done in the Ball Co finishing room. Note the flat 3 dials that are seen on all my data base examples. Hamilton records seem to indicate that it was shipped as a 999B which I have always believed to be Private Label or Ball and Co ORRS.

If it had been finished at Hamilton, we would expect the curly 3 on the dial.

You can prove or disprove this theory by giving us a pic of the underside of the barrel bridge.

I am betting on no serial number.

happy hunting

Hi Bill, I pulled the main spring plate and you were correct, there is no serial # at all which confirms it was finished at the Ball Factory. I tried removing the main spring plate from my 21j BRT SN 42622 but I could not get it off, nothing I have is sticky enough to pull it up. Anyway, I attached a pic of the underside of 17j BLE main spring plate. regards Joe

Joseph,

Thank you very much! You have to remember also that Ball had Howard BLE's in stock almost to the end of the 19th century. It seems to me that all the early Hamilton/Ball ORC and BLE sightings are most likely non factory installed barrel bridges.

Congrats again,

It would have been awful if the bridge had serial numbers of a different watch, but the later style dial seen on most of the BLE's convinced me that it was probably installed by Ball at a later date, much as he used the plugs on the 16 size brotherhoods.

There is the problem of collectors having found access to plugs and bridges decades ago, but in your case the dial kinda confirms its bein a Ball installation.

Your BRT 21J sunburst damasceening leads me to believe it is a factory job. If you ever get a pic under the barrel bridge, that would absolutely confirm it.

hapy hunting,

I'll get some sticker tape Bill and go back at the BRT and let ya know. regards,, Joe

Thanks Lindell, you and Boll are always of great help. I realized the Ball Howards were the earliest Brotherhoods and the Hamilton Brotherhood #13050 is a BLF, so I was really stoked to see the BLE I aquired was one of the earliest Hamilton BLE's recorded by Bill. I am also VERY pleased to say I finally found a complete set of plumb pierced hands including the correct seconds hand for my BRT SN 42622 but have not got around to taking new pictures yet. Would you care to see new pic's of the BRT with plumb pierced hands? As for the BRT case the BRT resides in, although it is not the original case I'll just have to suffer with that, but I can't imagine another "incorrect" case I could be so pleased to leave the BRT movement reside in. If it were any other "incorrect" case I'd be bummed out. Let me know if you'd like pic's of the BRT, P.S. I've been in touch with the old man I aquired the BRT from which is where I got the plumb pierced hands, I finally got him to break out his "parts" collection and I'd love to aquire some of the 18s ball dials he has including the MINT Ball & Co ORRS dial with the sweeping tail in the "A" in the word Cleveland. He also had a set of mint 18s ball blue spade hands for the later 18s Ball ORRS movements. But he seems he has to be in the right mood to see this stuff and I have to catch him in that "mood". I have no idea why he took the pierced hands off the BRT to begin with other than he is getting way old. regards,, Joe

Ha, I spelled Bill's name wrong "again" but this time it was a typo on his first name.
Oh, the gentleman I aquired the BRT from seems have an extreme emotional attachment to his collection and although he is selling some to pay for his "elderly care" I believe he will keep alot of it to the very end as a "comfort factor" which I understand. If that happens his son will inherit whatever is left of his fathers collection which he will sell in a heart beat most likely on e-bay. At this point, I really would like a few of the 18s Ball ORRS dials he has and a few parts like "regulator springs" for 18s Balls and the later 18s Ball hands. He has a 1st run and a 3rd run Ball & Co along with a few single rollers marked The Ball Watch Co, not sure if he will let them go anytime soon. regards Joe.

Lindell

Its hard to research these Brotherhood's when I don't have any actual examples in my possession to study.

I have to rely on others such as Joseph and you for observations.

Could you check the barrel plate on 28755 to confirm my theory that None of the BLE or ORC should have serial numbers underneath?

I wonder what the cut off point might be for the other Brotherhoods? Factory records stop using the 999 A B C D designations around the 42xxx range, but the brakewheel damasceened models must be factory produced! Can you or any of the other Ball Brotherhood collectors check for the numbers?

I would expect 13050 to have its numbers under the barrel bridge and any other BLF or BRT thru the 28xxx range
.
I realize this is a somewhat sensitive area, but unless they discover mismatched numbers, this should not cast aspersions on their provenance.

happy hunting

Hi Bill, no worries I WILL get that barrel plate off my BRT sn42622, maybe this weekend, if not by next week, I'm just a little busy with a patio right now and I need to get stickier tape to stick to the barrel plate in order to lift it off.

again, thank you both for all the info you provide!!!! Best Regards and have a great wekend. Joe

Hi Bill, Hi Lindell, I posted pic's of my BRT barrel plate (both sides)under my BRT post from March 2011. Enjoy