Hi, I like viewing pic's of others watches so I figured I'd post a few pic's of my recent BRT purchase. I may be able to obtain some service history on the watch as soon as the previous owner gets out of the hospital....I hope
Posts: 311 | Location: New Jersey in the USA | Registered: February 13, 2011
Glad you like it, it is a Wadsworth 25yr rose GF case, the BofRT is white, green, yellow and pink 18kt solid gold applied raised letters. Each letter is half of one color and half of another including the flags. I was really lucky to get this watch, I've attached a few more pics of the case for you.
Posts: 311 | Location: New Jersey in the USA | Registered: February 13, 2011
I know there is alot of discussion about what are the correct hands for many of these 18s Balls, I'm not so sure the hands on the watch are correct, but then I'm not sure what is. Anyone know what hands are correct or "if" these are?
Posts: 311 | Location: New Jersey in the USA | Registered: February 13, 2011
Thanks Mike, I appreciate your oppinion, it is tough to find pictures of many of these watches to make any determination on the hands.
Hey ED, could you post a pic of your 17j BRT? Since it is fron the same serial # run as mine I was wondering what the hands on your watch look like. Thanks in advance.
Posts: 311 | Location: New Jersey in the USA | Registered: February 13, 2011
Neat watch and movement. You are aware that the additional screw marks on the case indicate that this has been recased, but so what, it is a beautiful case.
The Brotherhood unions offered these cases circa 1912 as premiums for selling subscriptions. Some of them required that you send in your old case to recieve the replacement. (see Brt journal volume 31 1914)
Additionaly, The Burlington watch co offered cases marked with the union logo. I have no idea if your second set of screw marks match a Burlington or even if Burlington was available in 18 sz.
happy hunting,
Posts: 881 | Location: Arroyo Grande, California USA | Registered: February 22, 2004
Thanks Bill, the extra case marks are from the previous owner rotating another high end movement in and out of this case whenever this watch 21 jewel movement was being serviced. The owner would never let this case out of his possession. I'm told he has some very early service records for this watch which I hope to get soon if I'm lucky enough. I was pretty lucky just getting offered the watch, it could have easily went to someone else.
Posts: 311 | Location: New Jersey in the USA | Registered: February 13, 2011
IHC Vice President Pitfalls Moderator IHC Life Member
posted
Mike,
Here's a pic of my 17-jewel B of LF, serial #42031, like Lin's of this era its got the same pierced hands shown at the links Debbie provided to you. Mine also has a "PAT APP'D FOR" dial with a curly-top 3. This watch was from Lin Riddle's collection.
My B of LF -- Serial #42031
Posts: 6696 | Location: Southwestern Pennsylvania, USA | Registered: April 19, 2004
WOW Ed, thanks for taking the time to to post a pic of your beautiful watch! I sorta had an idea which hands are correct before I even asked. I found a pic of a 21j BRT in the same serial # range and the hands are closed spades, so I'd be happy finding either type some day but probably doubtfull considering how rare they are. I'm happy to return the .....drool and jealousy as I lust over your pierced hands. I feel the little niggles most of these watches have gives them character, shows they were used as work items and makes you wonder where they have been and what they may have endured during their years of service. I have other watches that look like they never seen the light of day, it is not very hard to imaging where those watches were over all these years gone bye.... cause the answer is "in a draw".
P.S. there is an 18s BRT dial on e-bay right now....showing pleny of service wear.....
Thanks All for your responses...
regards,
Joe
Posts: 311 | Location: New Jersey in the USA | Registered: February 13, 2011
All, one last question about Brotherhood 18s hands in the 42k SN # range. I've only been able to find 3 pic's of Brotherhood watches in the 42k SN # range, each one being a different jewel count and different brotherhood order and each had different hands. I'm wondering IF it is possible that W.Ball used different hands for different jewel counts and brotherhoods? Anyone want to chime in?
Thanks in advance
Joe
Posts: 311 | Location: New Jersey in the USA | Registered: February 13, 2011
Later on we know that Ball used plugs to fill brotherhood orders and that is why correct dials are so important to determine originality of later brotherhoods. Those plugs are still available today.
We know that Ball encountered some resentment from railroad workers who felt pressured by Ball's inspectors to purchase watches. He countered this by advertising heavily in the journals and offering discounted watches to the union leaders as premiums for journal subscriptions.
Early on in the 13xxx and 14xxx range Brotherhood watches left the Hamilton factory designated as 999c and 999D watches. In the 42xxx run they left the factory simply designated as 999's. I am speculating that direct sales of brotherhoods to the laborers were not in great demand and that the he might have been filling orders for Brotherhoods at this time by simply replacing Barrel bridges and adding the correct dials.
Those of you who own Brotherhoods in the 42xxx range have the ability to confirm or refute this speculation by checking the serial number under the barrels. They have always been out of my price range and I have no personal data to back up the theory.
Another reason I suspect this possibility is that Joe's watch seems to be part of a mixed run of Brotherhoods, adjacent serial number is for a different Brotherhood and this would make more sense to me if they did not leave the factory in "runs"
Again, I emphasize, this is pure speculation on my part, just feel it might be worthy of additional research.
happy hunting
Posts: 881 | Location: Arroyo Grande, California USA | Registered: February 22, 2004
Hey Bill, what happens if I take the barrell plate off? Will worms jump out at me? lol I'd be glad to look under that sucker to see if there is a serial #. Also, if you look at oldwatch.com there is a pic of a 21j BRT sn# 42606 and the hands are not pierced, I guess they could have been sourced from another Ball RR Standard 18s. Just wondering if you think all the Brotherhoods in the 42k range had the same pierced hands when they left the factory?
Posts: 311 | Location: New Jersey in the USA | Registered: February 13, 2011
I don't think anyone can be sure. I have seen ad cuts of these watches as late as 1902 showing pierced hands and some with the earlier style hands with the ball on the hand near the spade. Were they still in inventory at this late date? Or were they just saving money on printing costs? I would prefer the older style hands but wouldn't be that concerned with ordinary spade hands.
Let me know what you find under the barrel bridge.
thanks and happy hunting,
Posts: 881 | Location: Arroyo Grande, California USA | Registered: February 22, 2004
Your movement looks right, if you want to confirm its various components that option is available beginning with the barrel cover. Let the movement run down completely and then carefully remove the two retaining screws, if the cover is original to the movement you will likely see the corresponding numbers on the under-side. Below this post you will see a picture of the cover from 644007 as a basis for comparison. Many of us pull the dial and check the pillar plate as well as the balance bridge and other numbered components.
If there are no numbers on your barrel cover, that is an indication that yours may have been put together to fill an order, some movements are that way. As Bill pointed out above that was often done, in fact the 16-size Ball-Waltham movements featured a replaceable brass plug so that the folks at Ball in Cleveland could change from ORRS to a Brotherhood allowing them to fill an order for one particular marking or another. What you do not want to find are numbers from an altogether different movement.
About the hands on your watch, as Debbie explained to you in her February 27th posting there are representative examples of correct 18-size watches shown in our Ball Watch Company Research Forum and to get a flavor of just how distinctive the correct, original hands are begin with Ball-Howard, 1890s Beauty then go to Early Ball-Hamilton 18-size Images where you will see the only two styles of hands that could have originally been fitted to your watch. The "Pierced Hands" shown on various of the watches shown there including those on contemporary advertising in that topic and the spade hands that are shown on 20577 in that same grouping, which are identical except they are not pierced. A later, slightly heavier style is shown on 170249 and then in Later Ball-Hamilton 18-size Images a much later style appears on some of the last 18-size Ball movements ever made. Close examination of all that information and images shows how precisely matched three hands on Ball Watches will be. Unfortunately your number 42622 has later replacement minute and hour hands but that is not unusual as hands were often replaced. Your seconds hand is similar to one a non-pierced set of the correct era but the center looks to be a bit larger diameter than usual.
Finally, more about the "runs" wherein various movement numbers appear. Practically all the Ball Watches were produced in what we call "mixed runs" as Bill alluded to and for that reason they are entirely unpredictable, in fact that unpredictability is probably the most predictable thing about Ball Watches. Consider that Ball would have a group of numbers, several hundred, at times a thousand or more set aside, it was called "blocked" and they then ordered movements from the manufacturer to be numbered within that run but it is also important to realize the entire run was not always produced. This was common in the watch industry but even more so with Ball Watches. Take a look through 16-size Ball-Hamilton 999 and 999B Movement Numbers and Years Listing for additional "mixed-run" information.
Lindell
Here 644007 has corresponding numbers...
Posts: 10553 | Location: Northeastern Ohio in the USA | Registered: November 19, 2002
Hey Lindell I have not forgotten you. I removed the barrel plate screws but due to lack of grip or the proper tool I was not able to lift the barrel plate upwards. Should I have removed the movement from the case first? Would removing the movement from the case give me a place to grab the barrel plate from the outer edge of the movement?
Posts: 311 | Location: New Jersey in the USA | Registered: February 13, 2011
The case should not be in your way as the case is flush with the train plate.
We often employ a product called "Rodoco" as a sticky gripper in lifting such things as this, the Rodoco also helps in removal of finger prints, blotches of oil and such in performance of an all-over cleaning-up and brightening. In the alternative you could use a sticky piece of tape to help lift the barrel cover which is held in place only by those two exposed screws. Resist the urge to use any form of blade it could easily slip and scratch your movement.
Seeing the numbers will likely be anti-climactic as the markings all look correct for your 42622 movement number. Notice that number 42690 in Early Ball-Hamilton 18-size Images from the same run as yours, is a 21-Jewel B of LE with the exact same markings and patent numbers, based on that I would expect the numbers on your movement to match correctly. As previously discussed everything looks right except for the hands and case.
One more point, it is not unusual to find Brotherhood-marked cases that previously held other make movements, not every Brotherhood member carried a Ball watch, in fact there were even Brotherhood-marked dials on other makes of watches. Here is a topic featuring a three very interesting Elgins with Brotherhood-marked dials...
Thanks Lindell for the suggestion, I'll use some tape to lift the barrel plate to see if there is in fact a serial # at all, if there is one I'm sure it is the correct matching serial #. Oh, I have a lead on a complete set of correct hands which I should have in the upcomming week or so, the plum colored non-pierced ones. I had the pleasure of viewing the largest 18s ball collection I've ever seen, a total of 50 complete 18s balls in 17j , 19j and 21j. Some early serial #'s, one single roller, there were a few movements, a few dials and loose parts. All were ORRS dials and movements, some were in BRT or BLE or BLFE or Ball model cases. The brotherhood cases were engraved cases and all had a good amount of wear and brassing. In addition to picking up a set of hands for my BRT I hope to pick up a dial and two `17j complete watches.
Posts: 311 | Location: New Jersey in the USA | Registered: February 13, 2011
the dial I hope to get is a ORRS 18s dial which I figure couldn't hurt to have around if the price is right, along with the set of hands and two complete 17j ORRS watches. The movements on both 17j watches are very clean and running great, one of them has an incorrect balance cock mounting screw but correct otherwise. One is in a heavly brassed ball model case and the other is in a Fahy's case. Both have ORRS dials, one dial is mint, the other has a few very light hairlines. I'll bring a camera with me next time and maybe I can get a pic of all the watches together, it was almost too much to view in a single seating.
Posts: 311 | Location: New Jersey in the USA | Registered: February 13, 2011
Hi Bill, Hi Lindell, well I finally found some tape sticky enough to remove the barrel plate. Like my BLE there was no serial #. I attached pic's of both sides of the plate
Posts: 311 | Location: New Jersey in the USA | Registered: February 13, 2011
drooling !! envy! jealousy !!!
