Is this a 936 Ball movement Sorry took picture quick serial #42558

From the info I could gather, it looks to be the equivalent to a Hamilton grade 938.

Edit: don't quote me on that, I am not a Ball guy...just trying to help. My research capabilities are fairly limited when it comes to these.

I think it was known as a 999D by Hamilton

I thought we might have a serial number chart here for Ball watches but I cant seem to find it.

Rob

The serial number chart shows 42,000-43,000

Hamilton 18S-17j-ONBL-A-999 1899 RBA,OS,MR

also in the same run

Hamilton 18S-21J-ONBL-A-999 1899 RBA,OS,MR

Look the front sports a rare 3 hour time zone hands LOL

Thanks for the help I did look up the Hamilton serial number but it was listed as a 21j so I didnt feel it was accurate.

Try here:

Ball & CO list

happy hunting

Thanks Bill I couldnt find that list I thought there was one. Did you put mine on the list or was it on it already. Looks like it is a 999B to your list

Robt

just added it. B is an ORRS or jewelers private label with 17 J.

Ok Bill what am I missing I went to your link when you posted it and my serial number was posted already and still is listed as
"42558 999B Ball & CO ORRS" or am I reading it wrong Or is this what you are saying mine is

Yes, Thats what yours is. Factory designation is (18-size) 999B. I posted yours yesterday.

NOTE: Do not confuse these early 18 sz watches with the later 16 sz 999B's

I have never been clear what base model Hamilton used for the 999's.

938's have always been the watches in the run of 8701-8800 to me. Hamilton factory records designate them as 938's shipped to Ball. After 13001 they are designated as 999 A,B,C,D,E or F.

Approx 87 Watches were shipped as 936 models, prior to 8700 and beginning with serial number 601

happy hunting

This is one I picked up from a local scrap shop back in 2009. According to the database, this should be the very first 999B produced...is that correct? Serial number is 14,901.

Here is a shot of the dial.

Great Watch Bruce and this would be a factory designated 999B in the second run of factory designated 999B's.

13071 would be the first (18-size) 999B. 13001-13070 were 999C's and 999D's.

NOTE: Do not confuse these early 18 sz watches with the later 16 sz 999B's

happy hunting

Bill, do you manage the Ball database? If so, could you add my watch to the list. THANKS!

Bruce

see correction above.

I added yours to the Ball & Co. data base

hppy hunting

Bill, I just went to the database and could not find my serial number. I thought it would be between #14,898 (D model) and 14,912 (currently listed as the first B model of the second run). Am I looking in the wrong place?

Bruce

Thanks,

I read your number wrong and posted it as 14001.

that puts it much later than the first 999B in the second run.

Will correct.

happy hunting

Bill, look at my previous posting. It appears that 14,912 is the earliest B on the list for the second run. Mine predates this. According to the database 14,901 is supposed to be the first of the second run. Am I wrong on this?

Bruce

14001-14100 were designated by Hamilton as 999B's and so far, all have been reorted as private labels.
14101-14150 were 999C's & D's.

14151-14850 were designated as 999B's.

(note that 14159 is a replacement barrel bridge!)

14851-900 are again C's and D's.

14901-15000 including your 14901 were designated as 999B's

Bruce,

Your watch is highlighted in green.

13071-13400=999B
14001-14100=999B
14151-14850=999B
14901-15000=999B

These Ball-Hamilton watches are confusing to me and it’s interesting that I found some pictures of movements with serial numbers lower and higher than Bruce’s with different barrel bridges. Bruce's barrel bridge is curved on the left and the watches in the pictures I posted have straight edges on the left.

Below is #14761 which is shown at a Jones and Horan auction as lot #122. Lot 101 - 130 Ball Pocketwatches

Then there is # 14927 which is shown here: Early Ball-Hamilton 18-size Images... In that topic Lindell explains that watches were often not finished in serial number order. Since Bruce’s watch has a balance bridge that looks like Rob’s movement #42558 maybe it was finished later than the others in the serial number range of 14901-15000?

RR

Interesting stuff!

Richard
according to finishing room records:

the latest a 14xxx left the finishing room was 3/11/97. 14901 sold to Ball Oct 5 1897

42558 left the finishing room between 8/27 & 10/29 of 1898 and sold to Ball 11/26/98

Those different barrel bridges are a puzzle!

#8774 which Hamilton designated as a 938 also has the straight edge on the left side of the barrel.

Could this indicate that the straight edged ones are based on the 938 and the curved ones on a different Hamilton model?

happy hunting

Lindell

FWIW:

BLE 42690 would be a replacement barrel bridge and should have no serial number on the underside.

My BLE 42881 also has the rounded left edge and right side patented June 30'96 marking and is unserialized under the barrel bridge.

Same is true for 28632 & 42401!! So far all BLE's!! 21J or 17J have the June 30 date!

Wouldn't it be great if that was a clue to these unserialized barrels! Wouldn't have to pull the barrlel bridge to verify!

UPDATE; SAME JUNE 30 PAT DATE ON 21J ORRS IN THE 118XXX RUN! THESE BARREL BRIDGES DO HAVE SERIAL NUMBERS STAMPED UNDERNEATH. THESE HAVE ROUNDED LEFT BARREL EDGES, SO THE PAT DATE MUST ADDRESS SOME AS YET UNKOWN FEATURE.

They may be a later than expected sales to fill a Brotherhood order by taking an in stock ORRS to fill the order.

I don't know if this has been posted before, so sorry if I am repeating something.

This is a patent of Webb Ball for "Design of Watch Plate" dated June 30, 1896

This is a 2nd patent for the same date June 30, 1896

This is for a design with the patent dated November 17, 1896.

I don't know if these plate designs and patents match your watches. I am not lucky enough to own any of these.

TOM

Matches for the 21J ORRS and BLE but not the 17 J BLE

Thanks

Thanks Bill
After your post I looked up the 17 jewel BLE then I searched patents for watch plates hoping to maybe find that one but no luck. On some patents Ball is listed as Webster and on some W.C., but I also just searched watch plate design but couldn't come up with a matching one.

Tom

Tom,

Might still be a clue here. The BLE and ORC were replacement barrel bridges. If they were ordered for 21J with the June 30 pat date, possibly the incorrect pat date was put on the 17J also. I will pay attention the next time I see a 17J brotherhood. That incorrect pat date could still save me from trying to arrange getting the barrel bridge pulled and confirming the missing serial number.

happy hunting