Hi,

i know the elgin veritas 23j size 18 books at higher value compare to the waltham
vanguard s18 23j.

There is a great production difference between the two the vanguard around 100,000 the veritas around 26, 000.

Is that the reason the veritas has a higher book value ? Also, are they both about the same in quality? And is one more superior mechanicaly?

Being new to collecting i would like to obtain them both, but the vanguard seems more affordable
for me at this time, i appreciate any and all information, art

Be careful not to match apples to oranges.

To compare Veritas to Waltham... I would look at the Maximus rather than the Vanguard.

It's about more than just the final fit and finish. These watches get special attention during their builds as well. Special damasceen, inlay, jewel selection (color and quality)... style and finish on screws, champhered and polished regulator bows...

There is a hole in grade coverage between these two brands in 18 size.
The top line Waltham Maximus was available only in 16s.
Vanguard was highest grade available in 18s.
Finish and a gold train benefits the 18s veritas

The transistion from 18s to the more popular 16s may be why Waltham left the 18s alone.

.

My mistake... I missed the 18s

I want to thank both of you for your input, i am partial to size 18s, i just cant help it. I like the feel and over all look Of a size 18.
i know with the passing of time all size 18s were fazed out and the size 16 became the RR stardard and moving into the 20th century and the advance in technology some manufacturers size 16s became the best mechanical watches ever made, like for example the hamilton 950B. But i would perfer the 946. But i should not compare them, for they were both made in a different
era. I would consider them one of the best of their time. Once again, i want to thank you all on the forum for your replies and sharing your knowledge with this newbie.

Arthur, I wrote one comparison and it disappeared when my COMP locked up so here I go again.

Comparing the Waltham Model 1892 with the Elgin Model 8-9 is like comparing a Rolls Royce to a Mercedes 600 Pullman.

Waltham takes the Prize for introducing the Model 1892 first, but that said, Elgin created their Model 8-9 about 10years later doing what THEY thought Waltham should have done!

BOTH WATCHES are the finest designs ever produced in an 18 size for RR accuracy performance! These designs eclipse all 18 size "Pillar" plate movements. That includes Waltham, Elgin, Illinois, Hamilton, South Bend, Rockford, etc., etc.

The reason? ALL of the "other" watches WERE PILLAR PLATE designs. The Waltham Model 1892 and the Elgin Model 8-9 did NOT use pillars to separate the plates, the plates were mated together totally eliminating differential plate temperature intrusions on the time accuracies.

The ONLY feature "improved" over whatever Waltham and/or Elgin put in these two models that I can attribute as "better" is the 48-60 hour movement design developed at Illinois and (later) used by Hamilton for 16 size (only) watch production.

Thank you Dave, i have seen pictures of the piller movements, but didnt know there was a name for them, once again i learned something new. Dave what is your opinion and of course the opinion of others reading this of the hamilton 946. 23j size 18.
They always seem to go at a much more premium price then the veritas and vanguard s18 23j models. Once again, thank you to all. Art

The Hamilton 23 Jewel 946 IS a pillar movement and has a most complicated Motor barrel design (quite unlike Hamilton's usual efficiency of parts count). It IS a 21J Pillar Plate movement with the Motor also jeweled and well-made, but lacks the design sophistication of the Waltham 1892 and the Elgin Model 8-9. It's value is in it's rarity. I would put the Hamilton in my collector's showcase and carry the Elgin or Waltham.

Thanks dave, that tell me a lot between the three, art

Art, I am also new to this, and I prefer 18s for the same reasons you do. I am most happy with my 940 in my pocket! I also have a 18s 24j Bunn Special on the way.
Now I might have to see about the Elgin Veritas! Thanks everyone for the great information, and a possible new direction! Studying in progress!

Yes George, i perfer s18, for their fee in my hand and i think they show nicer because of their size. Also, they are the oldest size produced. Of course as all manufacturers switch to the s16 and technology improved as it always does with the passage of time.
i dont think you can compare a elgin veritas s18 23j from the turn of the century with for example the hamilton 950B from the 1950s, its just wouldnt be fare, they both reflect the highest technology of their time and place in history. This is just a opinion of a newbie collector, thanks to all, ps. George, i know weare fortunate to have some great techers on this forum. Art

Art, I have a 950b, care to guess what is in my pocket? The 940! It makes me happy. Is the 950b more accurate? Perhaps, but seconds only count if you are running trains! The 940 is darn accurate!
The 950b is a fine watch, I will keep it in the safe in case I ever have to run a train.
We should start a 18s new guy club. Must have a number above 2,000 to be a member...
Art and myself are charter members.

Thanks George for the honor membership. I also have a 940 also, t was the work horse of hamilton,
i would love to find a nice example of a elgin veritas s18 23j or waltham vanguard s18 23j, the elgin is a little bit pricey
for me right now, maybe one reason only around 26, 000 elgin veritas s18 23j were made compared to the waltham vanguard s18 23j. 100, 000, so my search continues. Thanks art

Art, good luck in your quest! Please keep us informed!

Model 214 Veritas models pass through the classified quite often here, so keep an eye out. They're not that far out of reach either.

I love mine, and it has a Canadian dial, so it just adds to the enjoyment, let alone the fact it keeps railroad time to this day.

Regards! Mark

Thank you mark for the advice, i will keep my eye on the look out here. Canadian dial is great to have, i think it has to be a rare dial for i see very few of them, and yours must add to the value, for they are so much nicer then the standard. Thanks, art

Mark, they are beautiful without a DOUBT! This "lowly" 19J B W Raymond passed through my collection and left a lasting impression.

WOW ! what a beautiful watch, i will dream of it tonight. If my wife finds me smiling in my sleep, i hope she believes i am dreaming of this beautiful watch and not her sister lolo art just teasing about the sister not the watch., art

PS, I just had to down load the photos of the raymond to save and enjoy looking at it and dreaming of it. I hope you dont mind. When you i a beautiful watch like that it reminds me why i started collecting, beautiful american craftmenship, design and instrument for time keeping and in my opinion, a beautiful piece of art. Just my opinion for what it is worth, art

My Veritas 214 has the 24 hour indicators, but no marginal minute markers.

It also has the diamond end stone, so it's a real piece of eye candy....and keeps railroad time to boot!

Regards! Mark