I am not a horologist nor a collector but am drawn to seek information on this site alone among the many I found while researching my inherited pocket watch.

Movement:
Ball Watch Co. #B604884; “23 Jewels”; “Official Standard” with gold seal “RR” on the plate

Case:
Fahys “Montauk” (10kGF) #460576; “R.R.”

Chain:
LESTAGE 1 20 12k GF (marked on last link between the chain and the watch-clasp)
11” length from tip of watch clasp to center of toggle-bar

History:
- Carried by my grandfather (1889-1958) all of his adult life (family lore); I do not know if he purchased it new, he was the foreman of the cottonseed oil mill in a small east Texas town (the location of the 'noon-whistle' for the town).
- Carried by my father (1924-2005) only on special occasions; the small 10k gold medallion on the chain is his.
- Stored in a safe deposit box 2005-2019; I recently inherited the watch.

Known condition issues (my very inexpert inspection):
The watch does not run, I do not know if it was running when stored upon my father’s death. The crown resisted very gentle effort to turn it clockwise; the crown freely turns counter-clockwise with a ratcheting feel. With very gentle effort the set-lever extends about 3/32” then meets resistance. It appears a screw is missing in the movement plate left of the “Ball Watch Co.” engraving. To my inexpert eye it appears the mainspring may be broken or displaced.

There are two very fine hairline cracks in the paint (or is that enamel?) of the dial, one between 4-5 and one between 7-8.

The undecorated / plain case back (with apology I was unable to take a usefully glare-free pic of that) is worn with some scratches and very shallow dents but the gold of the case is not worn through except at the inside of the top loop where the chain clasp bears.

My Goal:
I would like to have the watch movement repaired to functional without altering the appearance in any manner whatsoever. I would like to use the watch as a ‘bedside clock’, hung in a small ‘display dome’ where it would be wound at proper intervals.

Today I emailed one of the IHC185 business members who is located here in Texas about what would be involved in achieving that goal – I’m sure I’ll hear back from him during his normal business hours.

Reason for Posting (Questions):
- I’d welcome any opinions about the ‘originality’ and ‘correctness’ of this watch based on the limited info provided. I’ve researched the archives of the late Mr. John Gelson on this site and believe the SN corresponds to a grade 999 Ball dated ~1920 per that resource.
- I’d welcome any opinions about its value as a vicarious matter (I’ve no intention of sale, but would like to know if it’s perhaps significant enough to require special consideration under my homeowner insurance policy.)
- I’d welcome opinions about the appropriateness of my intended future use.
- I’d welcome any other comments about the watch or its care and preservation.

Thanks In Advance.

Movement pic #B604884

Inside Back Case pic

That's a fine watch you have inherited. I have a similar story, having inherited my grandfather's Elgin watch. He, too, lived in a small East Texas town and carried that watch his entire life.

From this source, it looks like your watch is a Ball 999N made for the Ball company by the Hamilton Watch Co. between 1916-1920, probably closer to 1920. I'm no expert but I have found this source reliable in the past.

For restoring the watch, I can recommend Chris Abel, a member here, who lives in Texas. His website is here.

I "second" Chris Abel. he restored two pocket watches for me. a Hamilton and a Waltham. He did a fantastic job in my humble opinion. I was pleased...

bernie

Any high grade watch such as this always warrants a COA (clean/oil/adjust) by a good watchman. When you add the inheritance factor, it becomes priceless to the owner.

It has a few problems. They are mainly insignificant with it's inheritance factor leading it along. It probably left the factory in a "Ball" marked stirrup bow case. It has a couple hairlines in the porcelain fired dial. It needs a COA and a Hamilton plate screw. It has a few small tarnish corrosion spots on the winding and crown wheel that will always be there.

As it sits today non running, it has a value of $500 as~is. Get it COA'd and a new white mainspring and it will fetch $700-$850. A COA and new white mainspring and a plate screw should be out of pocket in the $150 range (+/- $50).

A nice watch worth restoring any-day without adding it's priceless inheritance factor.

regards,
bb

Hi Alan,

I see you have some great advice here. I do see that the case has been replaced. They did a good job as the case screws match. I know you want to keep the watch as close as possible to the way your dad left it but it does need a new plate screw as Buster suggest. If it were in the original Ball case that would add to the value but being 23j it is still a very nice and valuable watch.

Harry

Thank you everyone for the advice and continuing education!

Chris Abell is indeed the person I emailed about repairing the watch (I wasn't sure of the forum etiquette with regard to specific mentions when I made my original post). I look forward to hearing from him at his convenience to discuss pursuing the service and repair.

Now understanding that the watch most likely didn't leave the Ball factory with the Fasky case (and knowing that my father didn't have it re-cased), how are some ways that sort of change was made 'back in the day'?

Was it common, for example, that a retailer would re-case a watch 'speculatively' prior to it's initial offering for sale? Or, is it more likely that a buyer would specify that at the time of original purchase, or even years after it was purchased?

I suppose I should ask, is the pictured Fahys case of a style and number likely available when the watch was first sold? I'd have the same question about the chain?

All of this guessing of course but it lends to better informed interesting speculative family discussion about grand (and great grand)father's life. We know he was never a man of wealth and by all indications was quite frugal. We've no way of knowing but it's quite possible he acquired the watch as payment for services rendered or settlement of a debt.

Does anyone have any idea of the (unadjusted) price of such a watch and/or case in the early 1920's?

Again, thanks for the continuing education.

The case is a FAHY'S gold filled watch case. The original Ball Stirrup bow style case it came in was replaced sometime after if left the factory in 1920. Most of the time Fahys gold filled cases lasted many years until the gold filled layer exposed it's inner core of brass. So no one can tell you when or why the case was replaced. The retailer would never have changed the case unless a buyer demanded it and I can think of no reason a buyer would do that. Generally we see the Fahys RR marked cases starting about the mid to late 20's.

Here's what Ball Watch Co had to say starting in 1902;

"Many good watches are ruined as timekeepers by being forced into cheap, imperfect sweat shop cases that do not fit properly. We have had some sad results in this direction, and intend to avoid such dangers in future by sending out complete watches only."

The watch chain would be era correct for the watch. This particular 23 Jewel Ball movement would have been used by those that were required to have a Railroad Approved/Railroad Grade watch and generally not by other workers in other industries because they costs more than the average worker could afford to pay for a watch. The foreman of a cottonseed mill would not have to have a more expensive watch such as this 23 Jewel Ball RR watch as a 7 to 17 Jewel watch would be all that he should need or desire in the course of his duties.

I don't have a Ball Watch Catalog from 1920 handy but I would guess that in 1920 this watch would have cost in the neighborhood of $50 new in the correct Ball case.

regards,
bb

Thanks very much for sharing your knowledge Buster!

That's great information and reinforces my suspicion that grandfather probably acquired the watch, already in the Fahys case, second-hand somewhere along the way. It's my understanding that he and the family were relatively fortunate through the depression, cottonseed oil remaining in fairly high demand through those hard times.

The condition of the watch case, the lack of wear on the gold fill other than at the top loop, would seem to indicate that granddad didn't carry this watch all the time (contrary to my father's recall) but likely used it for 'Sunday go to church' or other occasions when he 'dressed up'. All just guessing of course, but fun speculation.

Not sure if the cultural / social / vocational context of watches is a usual part of y'alls' interest but it's a fascinating aspect of it to me.

Again, thanks to all for your comments, they are much appreciated!

Edit - I've just submitted annual dues to IHC185 as a small token of my appreciation for your shared information - I do thank you all!

Alan you can't get any better information than the information that comes from Buster. There are a few here with just as good knowledge but it doesn't get any better than Buster.

What it boils down too is it doesn't matter when or where the case was replaced. Someone could offer you the correct case now and you would not switch it. You want it just as it was left to you with all the bumps and scrapes your grandfather and father earned along the way.

You can speculate all you want as to when and why the case was swapped but unless someone is still alive that remembers it then that information is lost. Who knows you may find some old paperwork from your grandfather which includes the sales receipt. But until that happens then enjoy your family heirlom just as you found it but with a new C.O.A.

Harry

That is an heirloom

Hey nice watch i have worked on quite a few of these and when serviced and with a new mainspring you will be surpised how accurate these are.

While my watch is now in the expert hands of Chris Abell for some needed TLC & repair ....

Can anyone give me step-by-step instructions (or maybe a link to same) for
1) Winding the watch (how much and how often; can this watch be 'over-wound'?)
2) Setting the watch (I know the crown 'lifts' and I know it has a setting-lever exposed when the front bezel is unscrewed; is there a particular sequence for lifting the crown vs pulling the lever; does the setting-lever need to be 'held-out'; should it always be turned clockwise?)

It's all probably KISS but not having owned a pocket watch would just like to know the correct procedures to ensure continued long-life as a 'bedside clock' hanging in a display dome.

Your Ball watch is a lever~set watch which means you do not have to pull the crown out to set it. A back and forth motion is the way most folks wind the mainspring up. Then you must take the front bezel off, and with your fingernail, pull the lever up and then turn the crown clock~wise to set the time. When finished gently push the lever back in but try not to let it slam against the dial or it may crack the porcelain dial. Put your front bezel back on and you are set and ready !

regards,
bb

Alan, here's a link with pictures to setting time on a railroad watch on my website. They are pretty much all the same on an American railroad watch.



HOW TO SET TIME ON A RAILROAD WATCH

Just a follow-up having received the now wonderfully clean functioning watch back from Chris Abell ...

Thanks, Chris, for the very positive experience! I'm thrilled with the outcome, my family and I appreciate the care you took with our heirloom!

And thanks again to the IHC185 members for the education and encouragement.