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The photos below show differently configured model '72 movements. I'm hoping someone can shed light on this. I expected them to have the same orientation, as they are both 15J and Grade Amn.W.Co. from production year 1882. The first pictured below has serial #1801823 and is named in the database: Amn W. Co. The second has serial #1637980 and is named: Am W. Co. Same grade, with slight difference in name. Same tadpole regulator. Per Ehrhardt's Waltham I.D. book, there is one other significant difference: the first is marked grade of material A, while the second is marked P. Is the slight difference in names meaningful, and what is the difference between P and A material grade? I could not find an explanation in this book. Thx, kh | |||
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2nd movement; sorry for the blurriness: | ||||
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I believe the first movement is an open-face movement, while the second is in hunting-case configuration. | ||||
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IHC Member 1555 |
Hi Ken, The "P" material designation means adjusted to normally 5 or 6 positions and the "A" material means adjusted to Temp and maybe up to a possible maximum of 3 postions. Also "P" material is usually the finest material used for pivots for that model type. regards to all Bila | |||
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IHC Member 525 |
In the Waltham ID guide book both these numbers refer to the "Am. Watch Co." grade. If you see Amn. Watch Co. it usually refers to the" American Watch Co " grade, which is a different animal altogether - one of Waltham`s highest grades if not the highest. | |||
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IHC Member 1555 |
I'll think you'll find Derek that the "American Watch Co" Grade is marked as exactly that. "Am Watch Co" marked watches can be "Amn grade" which is not the "American Watch Co" grade (which is the highest quality as you have said), but another grade type all together. This does not preclude the one that is marked as "P" material Ken has shown, from being the highest grade in it's class and model type with the full range of positional adjustments. | |||
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IHC Member 1736 |
Derek-Bila, Between the two of you, y'all have managed to thoroughly confuse me. I have the grey book and understand the A-P material designations. I was not aware of a difference between AWWCco and Amn Can you break this explanation of grades down in to a grid or matrix format rather than a paragraph format so I can follow it? It's like trying to figure out who begat whom in another bit of literature I struggle with. | |||
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IHC Member 1736 |
Ken, Have you had any luck finding cases for these? | |||
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IHC Member 1541 |
I am as confused as Paul and would appreciate a more lucid explanation. | |||
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Paul -- As Kevin Moodie said, one is a hunting case movement, and that one, of course, is the most difficult to cover. I think I have one for the open-face '72. I say 'think' because it remains to be seen how well the movement will fit. One parts guy I know swore that only a nominally size 17 case would work, and good luck finding such etc., but I'm not so sure about that. If you have any experience with this, let me know. I'm sure more than one member here has tried to case these movements. I personally believe they are worth the effort. kh | ||||
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The majority of the Model '72s were cased in solid gold hunters, and they were among the first to fall to the scrappers - sorry, "businessmen". | ||||
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IHC Life Member |
The "P" designator has been explained to me by some who discussed this with ex-employees of the W. watch co as meaning "Premium" grade. Suggesting more effort was given to the fancy finish treatment of the "P" movements. My Waltham Database used in Ehrhardt's book shows both serial numbers listed as AM.W.Co. and only differentiated by the "P" for the 1637980 and "A" for the 1801823 and of course the different case types. In looking at the movements themselves, the fancier damaskeening including the winding wheels on the earlier model may distinguish the two more realistically according to "A" and "P" than any speculation about mow many positions these were adjusted to. Such details were less stringent in the 1880-1881 time frame of these watch's manufacture. | |||
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I prefer the damaskeening on the first movement with the lesser "A" quality. kh | ||||
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IHC Member 1555 |
Hi All, When I get a chance to dig-out the data I will make a more detailed explanation of the grading, unless someone else does it before hand, David is correct that the "P" designation is for more of a premium grade, but I think you will find that applies more to the adjustments and the materials used than the damaskeening. I have had a dozen or so of these movements (very few cases unfortunutely)and a lot of the "P" designated ones especially in the earlier serial number runs were not highly damaskeened, does not mean that they are not out there thou. As for the cases, they are very different, the correct openface cases have the double front bezel arrangement, nigh impossible to find in my experience (which is limited). The hunters are a slightly different story, they are an odd size so before you cut the lever slot you need to check a few things. The model 1872 especially in the earlier serials have a thicker then normal dial plate and also a larger circumference therefore the case you use must have a deeper lip whre the dial plate sits and needs to be of a 17s size front opening, the later serial runs of these you tend not to have this problem (on the ones I have seen}. You need to look carefully when buying these movements as I have seen some of them with machined dial plates to fit a normal case. Also, the top plate on some runs can be of an odd size (17s) as well, so you will find a lot of cased examples with machined rear case openings. One last thing, the case needs to have a sleeve and female stem that takes the screw in the case pendant neck. Very sorry for the long winded post, just probably should of said, "buy one in a case". | |||
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No worries; great info, Bila- By the way, I don't think David meant grade has much to do with damaskeen quality. I interpreted it as 'practically speaking, the qualitative differences between A & P may not be very reliable for some years of issue.' ((Please correct me if I'm wrong, Dave.)) I'll check the dimensions of plates and dial, and maybe forego cases if that task becomes too onerous. It was an adventure servicing the model '72 - the first time anyway - because you have to look twice at the construction before you put it back together - taking account of everything under the bridge! | ||||
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IHC Life Member |
On a lot of these watches, the DEGREE of (already fancy)Damaskeening seemed to be unrelated to grades. I have mused on the possibility that it could have also depended on the amount of (sales orders to fill) time there was in the finishing rooms. | |||
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