Congrats Lin! I was watching closely (can't imagine why?) and rooting for you.

Lindell....Just wondering?? What bunn special gets a 3100.00 dial?.....Robert

Well , now we know what one of these will bring! Now, the question is What's it worth?! Let's see, I can almost guarantee they will be higher next time one comes up for auction. With this kind of exposure, you can bet some more of them will come out of the wood work....... the 4 I've got are all on 163 IIE's , so you can understand that they won't be sold but Katy bar the door on the next one that show's up on ebay! Of course will that one be a perfect example? Time will tell so "Tune in next time, same Bat channel, same Bat station!" Happy "Holy Porceline Princess" Hunting!

Congratulations Lindell! Great dial and a hard one to nail down in perfect shape....However, I fully expected there to be at least 2 bidders over the 3 grand level. As I told you on the phone , "you better put 3200 on it, if you want it". Looks like I nailed that prediction by sheer luck and quite honestly , it would not have seriously surpised me had it hit 3500. All I can say is that if you had not been a very good friend of mine, there would have been 3 bidders over the 3K level, ha! They don't make 'em anymore, ya know especially without hairlines and maybe that's starting to sink in with the Illinois fans a little more everyday.
Now, maybe, just MAYBE, I could be sworn to secrecy from Dr. Debbie if you give me first dibs on the dial that's coming off the Type II with the "baby fine hairline", ha! Congrats again!

Lindell, what would Debbie have thought of your top bid???

after all, you left some money on the table.....

I shudder to think!

Jessica

I think the thing to point out on this dial is rarity, with far less than 200 ever made, finding one is very hard. Less than 20 have been seen in the last dozen years! Compare that to coins like say a 1893S Morgan Silver Dollar which they made over 100 thousand of! and I think they are bringing around 30 thousand in MS60 condition! Think about it, 100,000 coins and one in uncirculated condition can bring 30K, now consider the rarity of this dial.... and it only brings 3K give or take?

Rarity, quality and demand is the key in anything, and I think we haven't seen anything yet. As I've said before, a 1959 Les Paul standard guitar now brings close to a quarter million dollars in great shape and they made about 1700 of those in '58, '59, and 1960. They only cost 295 new and could be bought in the 70's for around 600. Things change and prices change and what makes that happen is one thing, REALIZATION of rarity, coupled with demand with limited supply. Watches are just now beginning to attract the big money which is only going to get bigger, I've seen it happen in rare guns, coins, guitars, real estate and now we question why on the ultra rare (by comparison in numbers) watches? Happy "I understand rarity and demand" Hunting!

Congrats Lindell for the winning bid!

To the price ... in some of the Ehrhardt books I remember seeing the line "The price you pay must ultimately be your own." and I think this quote fits the situation perfectly here.

I would not have expected this dial to have brought this amount, but am also not myself an active collector of the late Bunn Specials and definitely do not follow this market as closely as those who are. Lindell and Mike certainly are active collectors of these watches and it is these type collectors that will set the price when they come for sale, both in this auction and in those to come. It will be interesting to see where the market goes for these late Bunn Special variant movements and dials ... both in terms of price and number of participants at these prices.

Fred

Congrats on the purchase Lin, I'm sure you'll be happy with the dial.
Hey, if you have any money left over, you should spend it on:
1. Postal insurance for the dial, and,
2. Something for Debbie, in that order.

Pete

This is really quite fascinating, and I rather enjoy it--perhaps because I've been priced out of the market before I got started.

So-- congrats to Lindell for going after what he wanted, and getting it-- as long as Debbie withstands the arrival of the next credit card statement-- .

Jessica

WOW !!!!
Bought this one with a mint movement and mint dial in 1979, and thought I paid way too much for it because of the brass showing on the bow. Guess not huh!!!
Congrats Lindell--Hope they pack it carefully
Fred

And a nos model 2 Hamilton case just brought $ 538.00 on Ebay. Talk about the price of real estate being high!!
Fred

Mike,

On the subject of rarity, how many watch movements are there in the world for which this very scarce dial is a proper match? Perhaps more to the point, is there any real distinction between which watches this dial will fit and which watches it is properly mated with? Maybe even closer to the point, is there some way to know for certain that the dial belongs on a particular movement?

- Greg

Let's see if I can answer your question Greg.

1) there were approximately 18,000 watches made between 1928 and the end of production , say the 1940's where this dial is a proper match.

2) this dial will fit any model 9 Illinois watch, cheap grade, mid grade, high grade, bunn, sangamo, etc. because of the location of the dial feet ...of course you need to know it would not be "correct" on anything except a 23 Jewel 60 Hour Bunn Special made between 1928 and end of production when Hamilton took over.

3) the dial belongs on any Type III 23 Jewel 60 hour bunn special or 163 variant.

Hope this answers your questions.

Happy Hunting!

Mike,

I believe your three answers do pretty much cover the ground for my questions. I will say there was one nuance I was really trying to get to... I've noticed that you and others have described model 163 Type IE and Type IIE. Yet the third part of your answer refers to a Type III. To be clear, are all 163s Type III or is Type III another specific variant of the 163 like the Type IE and Type IIE?

- Greg

The type III is the last version of the 23 jewel 60 hour Bunn Specials made before the grade number 163 was assigned to these watches, so is not itself a grade 163.

The reason for the "type III" designation is that there are three 60 hour marking versions found on the non-163 23 jewel 60 hour Bunn Special, and Bill Meggers named these as "types" I, II, and III based on the order they were introduced.

Bill also used the "type" notation for the variants on the later 163 numbered Bunn Specials, but this is a separate set of watches with there own set of number and letter assigned "types".

Fred

Lindell,
I'm so happy you won your auction, Congratulations! Exciting HUH?!!!!

These watches have gone up in value since the 1950's in a very defined trend.

Congrats to Lindell again on his fine acquisition. Happy Hunting!

Hello to all,
As most of you know, I sell more watches/parts off E-Bay than I do on E-Bay. As for the Type II E's, I have had three phone calls today from interested buyers offering to purchase these watches. Prices range from $8,000 to $10,000 each, with no questions regarding cases or dials. Only complete watches. One man told me he would pay "whatever it took," he just needed the Type II E. I think I could price this watch at $12,000 and he would say, "just send it." Although the cost seems high, it scares me to price a Type II E at any price due to the multiple request I receive. In essence, I believe the market is far from drying up and I would not be suprised in one year to see a $15,000 to $20,000 price on these rare watches. As for the Type II, just set your own price. I can say this with authority, because I am the one selling the watches and I am the one receiving the request for these watches. The best watches never see E-Bay. I have always been afraid that if people knew the real price, I would never be able to buy one. My phone is ringing now. Just my thoughts.
Your Friend,
Bob Christie
(P.S. As Mike Chamelin would say, "Ha." Happy Hunting)

I can confirm that I have personally SEEN this on a limited basis and have often been told this by knowledgeable traders.

When a highly desireable piece comes in, in extraordinary condition.... every high-end seller has a list of proven customers. The dealer also knows the particular interests of each customer. So.... a list is made and calls are made. The price is usually set. If the customer is not interested or thinks the price is too high... the next name of the list is called.

If the piece is not taken by any of the "select" customers... it goes out to the public.

And.... I've heard more accusations that "catalog" prices are artifically low rather than artificially high. The public does not buy a lot of the high-end stuff but the public often brings it in, for sale to dealers. It is to the dealer's advantage to have "mint" prices artifically low for buying purposes. For pieces of extreme rarity and condition, "catalog" prices are a joke.

Just as one example.... look at the Shugart prices for a Ball-Hamilton DeLong. Shugart lists a number of prices, based on condition and also lumps 21 and 23 jewel varieties into the same price range. But... if you find ONE, buy it.... you will not be able to "shop" others for a cheaper price.

Bob/Lindell,

Could either of you point me in the right direction on obtaining a reference book for Illinois pocketwatches? Is one even available? I will be the first to admit that I do not know much about Illinois PW, as my main focus is on wrist watches. I only have about 30-40 PW in my collection. Since I have joined the 185 board I have read several posts regarding Illinois PW including early keywinds and I would like to study up on them a bit. I went to amazon to search for an Illinois reference book, but it was a little out of my price range....for a book... The watch guide doesnt really go into the different variations and I thought there may be a book that does....or is it all from experience?

Thanks,

Adam

One thing is for sure, none of us have a crystal ball and the final verdict on this subject will not be fully understood for a number of years. Until the time comes when we can look at history, opinions on both sides are just that – opinions. I do, however, tend to get real skeptical anytime I hear bold predictions about what the future value of any collectible will be.

In the end, Fred’s quote from Roy Ehrhardt said it best. Whether we are collectors, dealers or investors - each one of has to decide for ourselves what we are willing (and able) to pay for any specific item. Would I pay $3K for the subject dial – No! Does this mean that I don’t understand the scarcity or have a lack of knowledge? No again! It just means that I feel there are other items that I would much rather have for my $3K. Some people will agree, while others will disagree.

In regards to poking fun at the purchase price, count me as guilty. By all accounts, this was easily a world’s record for a Bunn Special dial variant. When records like this are set, there are always skeptics as well as supporters. Sometime the skeptics are right, and sometimes they are wrong. Stay tuned for a few years to see how this one plays out.

When I bought my type IR 15 years ago, I paid $500. Some of my fellow members told me that I had been had. This watch is in a tu-tone 206 case. I would guess that I could get quite a nice profit on this watch without any effort.

Jerry Freedman

Doesn't winning an auction mean, by definition, that everyone else is going to think you overpaid!

Rhett - If you don't watch out I may start quoting you one of these day's too!

Peter - Good point! But fortunately for the bargain hunters (and I try to be one!) not everyone sees every auction in time.

Fred

Aloha

First, I would like to say that the reason we are having this discussion is that many brave men and women have died so that we can.

Second, what an individual is willing to pay for the privilege of being the custodian of a particular time piece rests with that individual. What that person does or does not do with that time piece; only time will tell. Fore in the final analysis these time pieces will still be here and we won’t. Man made the time piece to mark the passage of his time. They serve an even more important part as a document in time as to who, what, where, and when that particular movement was, throughout its incredible journey. Some of these time pieces will make it, others already have. For others there journey is over. Whether they rest in a watery grave, have a place of honor in a collection or museum. Or meet their end as a donor watch. Like it or not. That is mans legacy to history, left through the science of horology.

Aloha and Mahalo Scott

Whoa!...that might be too deep for me. I'm just here to talk about watches and watch the "fireworks"

Who, in their right mind, last year, would have ever consider paying over $500.00 for a 7 Jewel, 0s, Elgin just because of a Pansy on the dial?

Today I pay that for a 7 Jewel Elgin, go figure!

To be honest, they are all 14k, but even SG 0s went for no more than $225.00 last year.

To each his/her own.

and the TICK goes on, and on, and on, and on.


I just love that... "and the beat goes on"...fun

Lindell, Congratulations on your buy. My take on this is, If you want it and can afford it, get it. I have made several buys over the years and in the main I have done very well, as you say Scarce Items can only appreciate. I paid £100 ($170)for a clock in 1973 and everyone at the time thought I was mad. Now they don't. Regards to all my friends in 185, Ged.