I'm aware of how hairlines and chips on dials can be caused,but chapter edge damage seems a whole different animal. I've seen some near perfect dials with a slight crumbling or erosion of a chapter edge-usually(in my experience)only for a 1/4 inch or so.

What can cause this? Is it from the soldering or maybe defective workmanship? To try and show a pic' you'd have to be good,I'm talking about only a bit of the very edge being "worn" or ...I resist saying "chipped"!

Maybe I'm off track and this is just mishandling-but I just had a feeling it had an unusual cause-?

Marty,

If the damage is right on the edge of the dial, it's probably from someone being cack handed with a case knife trying to pry the movement out of the case.
The copper back doesn't take kindly to being bent, and dial enamel certainly doesn't!

Could also be, the movement was dropped after pulling it out the case, or even caught by a case knife when prying a bezel off - sometimes knives can slip into the dial if the bezel is especially tight and gives suddenly.

Damage further in from the edge is most likely around a dial foot - especially common on Swiss watch movements, which use a screw to pull the dial tight against the plate.
These should be screwed 'Into' the plate until the 'flat' clears the foot to remove the dial, but not all folks realise that!

Sometimes where the dial feet are locked via a screw in the side of the dial plate, feet have been bent to better allign a dial with the centre post - and the perpetrator didn't get away with it!

Just my two penn'orth.

Best regards

John

Very good,John-but this isn't damage to the outer edge. I'm talking about either inner edge,almost like a knife was drawn for a quarter inch or so to flatten the definition or sharpness down.
Again,I have seen this two or three times and wondred how it comes about-?

Here's a pic'-but it's not much,I was hoping this was more common...well,you know what I mean!

One more-not much better...

I have noticed these small erosions of the edges and it causes me to muse on how they had to finish these composite multiple fired inserts to then carefully and correctly solder them together with the 1 or 2 other pieces. What skill it required to make these with various cutters to finish the OD of the copper substrate and also special cup grinders needed to very carefully finish and chamfer the O.D. of the fired ceramic glaze on the substrate. All it would take would be a "hot glaze" spot where the material crumbles some in finishing to cause these slightly deteriorated edges. It is intersting that Waltham W.Co. only started their Q.C. structure during the 2nd half of their business lifetime. Without a Q.C. regimen, and at least comparative "step" samples to use for judging good and bad parts, the determination of what was "good" may have been all to often based on output demand rather than quality standards!

Dave-Thank you for confirming my hopeful guess about these...defects. I really couldn't see how they could be caused by abuse/accident and etc.

But what in the Horological World is O.D. and Q.C.???
And I do like it when answers bring me more questions-Thanks-

Marty, "O.D." is "Outside Diameter", and "Q.C." is Quality Control". As for the process I muse on, the three piece "double sunk" dial may well have been the most expensive part of many watches. (See my simple sketch). The double sunk dial is actually three dials all put together. The first two large pieces make up the outer ring and the large inner dial insert where the maker's name is signed. These both are fired twice, sized, printed then carefully ground and assembled together. Then the third small dial making up the seconds chapter has to be installed in a NEW hole cut and ground into the larger 2 piece assembly to allow for precision insertion of the seconds chapter. Think of doing all this without breaking off pieces of the fragile twice-fired porcelain that covers all this stuff! Whats a little "rough edge" from time to time.

!!I can't believe how hard it must have been to cut into that two piece assembly,Dave! It seems almost impossible that either the first solder didn't loosen or chip-Man,I sure would like to see that done!
Do you know what type of tool was used to cut?
What ia a cup-grinder?
I could speculate about this forever-but I love those old tools;just the cleverness of some of them is amazing.
If you can add anything,Dave,please do!

A cup grinder would be like a coffee cup shaped wheel with the inside of the cup lip an abrasive surface that can grind the outside diameters of these pieces to an exact fit to the shallow countersink machined into the copper substrate of their mating parts. The cone grinder would be like making a 45 degree ice cream cone segment where the outside surface of the cone was abrasive so as to grind the slight chamfer into the inside diameter of the dial faces. These type grinding wheels assured that the entire circumference of the work surface was simultaneously "wiped" with an abrasive assuring no interruptions in the cutting action. Any interruptions would become shocks and damage the delicate porcelain surfaces. I have seen this process in use at Coors porcalain in Golden Co, and (for awhile) here in CA for the same types of finishing work on equally sensitive parts. These days the same thing may possibly be done more accurately with a waterjet or laser, but those were not an option in the 1700-1900's.

Some Hydrodynamic bearing designs used today in most laser printers and disk drives depended on this type work being done flawlessly. (I know because some of them are my designs )

As a member in good standing, I propose that from this moment forward Dave Abbe be referred to as "Professor". I can not imagine a more perfect explanation. And Dave does this time and time again. Thank You, Professor. This is one more example of the valuable content available at IHC185.

Thanks,Dave-I always want more info and you give it freely. I have a decent picture in my head now of this procedure and that's exactly what I wanted.