One of the first watches I bought was a 16s Elgin BW Raymond, 19j, adj to 5 pos., LS, OF, Ser. # 22243972 from 1919. I ran it once, and not knowing yet how to COA , I put it up for a later date. Tonight I decided to COA the movement. I found some thing I am confused about.

1. It has a solid balance wheel with a "white" hair spring. The balance cock has the complete and correct serial number. There are no numbers on the balance wheel.

2. Balance wheel jewel appears to be diamond. It is clear and has facets.

3. The lever is elongated and Y's over the escape wheel. This may not be unusual for an Elgin, this is the first one I have taken one apart.

Anyone have any ideas?!?! Could any of this be factory, or has someone altered this movement?

If needed I can try and post pics tomorrow when I have better light for the photos, but I am looking for some opinions this evening.

Thanks to all,

Mike

You should post some pictures, your brief narrative description leaves me with no idea what you are talking about.

I don't know if I know what I'm talking about.
I'll post pics in the morning.
Thanks Ed.

Pallet fork w/Y over escape wheel.

Pic 2

Pic 3

Balance wheel and hair spring.

Pic 1

Balance Pic 2

Balance Pic 3. Best I could get at 1:00 am.

Mike,

I found this old post with a search for "solid balance"

https://ihc185.infopop.cc/eve/f...623961477#4623961477

Dave refers to this as a "super poised" balance.

Awhile back, Dave explained to me that the "Y" or mustache on the end of the pallet fork was a design to balance or "counter balance" the other end of the fork so the free weight either side of the pivot would be equal. This was thought to neutralize any affect the orientation of the watch might have on the action of the pallet fork. It was later abandoned as insignificant or not necessary.

If I had to guess... I'd say you landed a "super tuned" watch.

R/Paul

And a search for "white hair spring" turned up this link.

https://ihc185.infopop.cc/eve/f...651085823#3651085823

The Elinvar Alloy hair spring seems to complete your super tuned package.

Apparently the Solid balance wheel needs to be matched with a white steel hair spring in order to regulate for temperature changes properly...

A very interesting package all in all. Thanks for posting.

Paul,
Thank you very much for the information. I certainly did not know about the mustache on the pallet fork.
I did know about the solid balance wheel and the elinvar spring but was wondering what it was doing on a 19j grade 455 B W Raymond as I had not heard of it before.
I am still wondering if anyone knows if this is factory or installed later. At what point did the elinvar spring become common? Has anyone seen it in a 455 grade before?
Thanks again Paul for your response, it was very helpful and much appreciated.

OK. The movement is back together. It has some battle scars but cleaned up nice.

I don't think the dial or hand are original. Anyone have any thoughts?

The case is not correct but it is without a scratch and looks brand new.

Case back.

Mike-

I recently bought #22244803. It is a 19j BW Raymond, but is a typical 19j, no diamond end stone, standard pallet fork and balance.

Thanks,

Jared

Movement back in case. Now to see how well it keeps time.
Still looking for some opinions on the inards.
Any Elgin collectors have an opinion?

MIke-

On second look, mine does have a counter-poised pallet fork.

Thanks,

Jared

Michael, your Grade 455 B.W. Raymond is actually "jeweled up" from 17 by capping the pallet fork jewels which probably at that time brought it in minimally to RR rules. The dial is correct as far as I can see for that production year.

The balance wheel was replaced sometime later with an all-elinvar Elgin Factory Replacement Hairspring-Solid Wheel. As there were a gazillion of these super wheels made during WWII, it is not hard to guess the origin for this one which makes a class A upgrade to this watch!

That case could be the second or third given the amount of use (and abuse) you describe.

It is all legit, and a nice carry and collectible piece.

Jared,
It looks like maybe yours was produced in the same run as mine.
Still hoping someone can shed a little more light on this subject.
Thanks,
Mike

David,

Once again thank you for your time and expert analysis!

And from the information Jared gave I can safely assume the counter-poised pallet fork is factory.
Now I can quit stewing on this and just enjoy the watch.

Many thanks to everyone.

Mike

Michael I am not by any means an Elgin expert but I remember having 2 16 size Elgins that my jeweler friend said had the Elinvar set up and since they were pre Elinvar serial numbers he assumed that they had been very nicely worked on by a horology student or jeweler with latter parts. Anyway they worked fine.

Thanks Deacon. It has been running for a little over an hour now and according to my IPhone World Clock has not lost or gain a second yet.

Mike