Hi, I have this Waltham Riverside Maximus pocket watch with movement # 16196712. It has a very interesting dial, which I have nere seen before and comes in a solid 14K case.Could anyone out there give me any information about this beautiful watch and dial? Thanking you. John

Hey John I can't tell you about your beautiful dial. I never seen one quite like it but did want to welcome you aboard the IHC 185.

Welcome Aboard John!

I've never seen a dial like that one, but of course I see new (to me) things almost every day.

Here's a good place to begin your research...


CLICK FOR IHC185 "Find-Or-Search" for "Waltham Maximus"


I'm sure others who have studied these watches closely will have more to say.

Lindell

I have seen this dial before on a 7-jewel export model Waltham that is marked "TEMPUS" on the movement. I do not believe it likely to be original to this movement [see my retraction below]. Although, as we learn more about who used this logo and the name TEMPUS in their marketing we may learn that they could have put this dial on the watch at the point of sale. Is the case American or foreign?

Hi Jerry, Thanks for the info on the dial. I have put a photo of the back case cover which may help. I beleive that Thomas Russell used a similar dial on their top of the range watches with the tempus fugus.Would this have any bearing on this dial? Thanks, John

John - I have seen that case mark before on another export model Waltham, and the dial logo has also been attributed to Thomas Russell by some other researchers. With those two factors to consider it is very possible that Thomas Russell put their own dial on this Maximus for sale out of their store. If it were mine I would assume the dial to be original. [Please ignore my initial reservations about the dial].

John,
The mark on the dial IS a Thomas Russell Trademark for sure, and it's a very nice one too.
I have a few of them, however the movements on mine are Thomas Russell also.

Great Find, Congratulations!

PS you can find my Thomas Russell with the Original Box at the link below.

https://ihc185.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/2291010082/m/7781037291

Notice the "Tempus Fugit" on the dial.

"Tempus Fugit" means "Time Flies"

Thank you Sheila & Jerry for the information on the dial and case. Now for the hard one! Could you give me some information on the movement which I have posted for you to see. I think it's a 1908 and by the serial number quite an early one. Would I be correct in saying this? Thanks again for your help and will be posting some very interesting watches for you all to see in the very near future. regards,John

The Waltham serial number records list this watch as being from a group of assorted specials, so that does not help establish the model. The use of the Ohlson patent regulator suggests that it may be a 1908 model, but the only way to tell for sure is to remove the crown wheel and count the number of crown teeth. I can check my parts list this evening to see what the tooth count should be. I believe it should also have slanted teeth on the winding pinion (also need to double-check that). By the way, I have not heard of any 1908 model Riverside Maximus before this, so it may indeed be very special.

The fact that your watch is from a group of assorted specials is another indication that it may have been ordered special for Thomas Russell -- these groups of specials are usually for individual retailers.

In Cooksey's book the serial number gives this one as being producted in 1908, however if you look in the 2006 Cooksey's 2006 book, it's listed on page 140 as a Model 1899 or 1908 size 16, Open Face. It also indicates that the model 1908 has the lever setting at the 11:00 position.

Below is a picture, however there is at least one difference in the movement. Check it out below.

Since the book is often wrong, you may want to let the experts here tell you more about it.

It's a really nice watch, and boy that movement looks "Sweet"!
I'll be anxious to know what the pros have to say too.

I did a quick check of the Riv Max watches on my web site and both have the 1899 characteristic whiplash regulator. This one is from a nearby run to the possible 1908 example. I need to take a better picture of it sometime.

Tom,
Gorgeous Movement, and thank you for the photo.
Can you tell me the difference in the regulator in my picture and the ones on yours and John's, and if it makes a difference?
Maybe it's because it's listed as an Assorted specials as Jerry mentioned?
Also, What is the name of the star shaped item on the regulator?

Interesting!

Regarding dating of the movement, John's Maximus also has Waltham's recoiling click that was patented in 1909, so it is probably from 1909 or later.

Waltham used a number of patent micrometer regulators over the years. The star wheel regulator in the Shugart illustrations was one of Waltham's favorites and was used on many grades and sizes. They seemed to reserve use of the whiplash regulator (as on Tom's watch) for their highest grades and special orders, at least in the earlier years and up to around the 1920s. This may possibly relate to patent rights -- I believe the basic whiplash regulator was covered by a Reed patent and Waltham may have had to pay to use this regulator until the patent ran out. The Ohlson regulator (on John's watch) was patented in 1908 and is often associated with the 1908 model 16-size movement. However, I believe the correlation is not 100 percent. I don't have the details at the moment but either some '99 models used the '08 (Ohlson) regulator or some of the '08 models used the star regulator. As I indicated above, the only way to definitively tell the '99 from the '08 models is to look at the winding parts. The Ohlson regulator was also used on later 1892-model 18-size watches.

Jerry,
Wonderful information, sorry, it wasn't here when I posted the question.

Exactly what I wanted to know. Thank you!

John,

Have you had the opportunity to see the bottom of the balance cock (serial number)? The damascening doesn't appear to match, on my screen anyway, so that might explain the regulator ...irregularity.

The dial is interesting. I have an example with Roman numerals. I didn't know it might be associated with Russell though.

From Ehrhardt's Trademarks book

Here is an image of the distinctive winding parts from the 1899 model (on the right) and the 1908 model (on the left). The '99 has 26 crown teeth and the '08 has 33 spiral crown teeth. Some '99s also had spiral teeth (but still only 26 of them).

Jerry, Do both the 99 and the 08 have a reverse thread screw in the crown wheel?

Tom

Tom - they both have a normal threaded screw.

Firstly I would like to thank you all, Sheila, Mike, Jerry and Tom for the great interest and support you have shown in my Waltham watch.THANK YOU! Now this is the story so far. I checked the balance cock and Mike you were right, The serial # was different and I was shocked! and then remembered that I had given it to my Japanese watch repairer for a new balance staff. So today I took the watch to him and asked what he had done and found that he had changed the original balance cock with one that he had taken from a Waltham 23j Vanguard which I gave him for spare parts two years ago.Boy! did I get mad. I have told him to replace the original balance cock and when finished will send photos. Thanks Mike for being so observant. Other wise I would never have known. Jerry, thanks for the photo of the winding gears. I took a photo of the clutch on my watch,Which I have posted, but didn't take one of the underside of the ratchet wheel. Once the not so ethical watch repairer that I currently use finishes putting the balance cock back together in it's originl form. I will post a photo for you to look at. Well that's all for now until I receive the watch back.Thank you all so much and will post other interesting watches up that I have collected in the very near future. Regards, John

John,
Thank you! it's been really great reading about this kind of information. It does so much to help me become more educated about these beauties.

Great questions, and great examples. Thanks again for letting me ask too.

I have read a lot about the American made watches, and their unique differences on the board, but seeing this one, about Assorted Specials, and their differences, has been a real treat.

I look forward to seeing more of your watches.

John - just from the length of the winding pinion (between the winding teeth and the ratchet teeth) one can see that yours is an 1899 model.

It is remarkable, and often disturbing, how utilitarian some watchmakers can be when they do not appreciate the historical values that we try so hard to preserve. Rather than replacing the balance staff your watchmaker may have just swapped complete balance assemblies, in which case you may no longer have the original balance wheel either (the watch serial number is scratched on the underside of the balance arms). He may have done this because it was easier than finding a replacement balance staff in Japan. If this is the case and you (or he) needs a staff and is having trouble getting one to restore the original balance, please contact us and we will find you one to restore this great watch. It takes a friction staff and the blued-steel hub should remain in the wheel.

I am not sure my 16 size 23 J Riverside maximus
pendant set movement sheds
any light or adds anything to The interesting
23 J maximus discussion?

Here are some more specs:
ser# 10530348. I believe date is 1901(?)
Regulator "whip" same as movement shown By
Tom M.
bernie levine