Hello everyone, good day!

In 1873 Elgin rolled out the first of it's stemwinding line. The series 2. There are six original grades.
B.W. Raymond.
H.Z. Culver
H.H. Taylor
G.M. Wheeler
M.D. Ogden
Mat Laflin

The earliest stemwinders released in 1873 were not lever set. They are stem/key wind and key set. This did not last long, and by 1874 they were equipped with lever setting mechanisms. We don't have every grade accounted for in the early key set form, only Taylor and Culver, unsure if more are made in this variation. In 1875 Elgin started using numbers instead of names, and the list expands from 6 grades to quite a few more.

According to observations/dates/ and research, all stemwinders except some of the very earliest key set ones, should have an Elgin Natl Watch Co Dial, and the only double sunk ones are the BWR.

I love this project, and feel that unlocking the secrets hidden with these movements also helps to more accurately date other movements as well. There are runs of movements that start at 155xxx that could very well have started leaving the factory in 1873, but the run isn't finished up untill very late in the 1870s.

Anyways... What I need are observations. As many as possible. Beautiful ones, ugly ones, broken ones, parts movements, parts of movements, doesn't matter! If you have any 18s Elgin that winds with a key and a stem, I would love to see it. I need to see what style of setting it has (key, slide lever or pull out lever) what shape the barrel bridge is (sharp or wavy), what dial is on it, I note all sorts of info from these.

To start it off I'll show you a few.

This one is my pride and joy! HH Taylor #246713
Not only is it an early key set stemwinder, but it's a private label (my other Elgin love). Jackpot!

Just to show you that serial numbers don't always correlate with date, my stem/key wind, lever set HH Taylor is 155911 and it's younger than 246713 by using these features to date them.

In case your looking at that last picture and wondering if I'm crazy because I'm calling that a Stemwinder, but it's in a Keywind case... Here is the underdial shot. It came in that case, and I can't prove its not original, so I kept it.

Instead of 6 individual posts I tried this.
Here are the six original lever set movements.

The earlier lever set movements used a lever that slides to the right, instead of pulling out. I believe that lasted till sometime in 1875 or early 1876 when it was replaced by the more standard pull out variety. Hopefully this photo turns out ok.

Thank you all for any consideration! This project started late 2018, and it's grown into quite a learning experience.

Had a look through my Elgin boxes Rick, but couldn't find such a beast, sorry I could not help-out

Thanks for checking sir!

Hello Rick,

I have two early H H Taylor "transitional" movements in my collection. Both are stem wind and key wind and both are lever set with the small lever that moves to the right (Not easy to set the time on these guys). One is fully cased and has a National Watch Co. Dial and the other is an uncased movement with an Elgin National Watch Co. dial. I'll dig them out and get some pictures posted for you.

That would be great, thank you very much!

Look forward to seeing them, and nice avatar.

Unfortunately the avatar is not very clear at this size resolution. I'm a big Elgin fan and the the image is of "Father Time" carrying an Elgin pocket watch in his right hand. It comes from an Ohio Jeweler's advertisement card from the late 1890's.

The two H H Taylor movements have serial numbers: 156,513 and 155,619 placing them around 1873 and 1872. The first 2 pictures are of 155,619 and it has the National Watch Co. dial and moon hands. The second set of pictures are of the 156,513 movement with the more common ENWCo dial. What is interesting about this movement is that it is marked adjusted while the older one is not.

Hope this helps in your quest,

Pic 2: 155,619 movement dial and hands

Pic 3: 156,513 movement

Pic :4 156,513 movement dial and hands

155619 is a fantastic observation, it is currently the lowest from that run with a slide lever. Awesome! Thank you so much.

156513 falls right in line with the movements I've seen around it. I own 155911

This run (155101-160000) is a huge run, and its one of the stem wind runs I mention above where I believe it took years to finish. The very beginning of the run are key set movements, then slide lever set through the middle, and the end are pull out levers.

The H.H. Taylor, both first and second series, could be had either adjusted or unadjusted. I do not see a pattern of specific runs for each kind, there are a mix in this particular run.

Thanks again! Big Elgin fan here myself. Love the 1870s.

Rick I will look to see what I have. I know I have several KWKS and I think I have the one with the lever that swings up instead of pulling out. But I could be thinking of a few of my Walthams. It will take me awhile to search through them and I will post what I find.

Harry

Rick here is what I have. Let me know which ones you are interested in;
1) 586,275 SW/KW Lever set (pulls) 7j solid bal. ENWCo on dial and movement.
2) 156,351 SW/KW type 2 slider lever 15j split bal. ENWCo on dial H.H. Taylor on movement
3) 828,601 KW/KS 11j split bal. ENWCo on dial and movement
4) 302,605 KW/KS 11j split bal. ENWCo on dial and G.M. Wheeler on movement
5) 21,464 KW/KS 13j (?) split bal. NWCo on dial and G.M. Wheeler on movement
6) 287,928 KW/KS 15j split bal. ENWCo on dial and H.H. Taylor on movement
7) 340,336 KW/KS 11j solid bal. ENWCo on dial and W.H. Ferry on movement
8) 181,754 KW/KS 15j split bal. NWCo on dial and B.W. Raymond on movement
9) 172,024 KW/KS 15j split bal. NWCo on dial and H.Z. Culver on movement

Harry

Hey Harry, thanks again for your input!

I just picked up a grade 8 like your 586275, really neat!

156351 would be great to catch a glimpse of if you have a picture. That's a great run of Taylor's.

Thanks again!

Hi Rick and welcome back.
Here it is.

Harry

dial

Thanks Harry! Nice one!

Thank you Rick! The lever swings up instead of pulling out. Bad design in my opinion.

The slide lever did not last very long, a couple years at the most before they started making the regular pull out levers. It is a pain to set. I use a plastic toothpick, ha! It's a feat to hold it and move the lever and spin the crown at the same time.

Here is the newest addition to the early Elgin stemwinders collection. There are two runs of M.D. Ogden. One run of 1,700 and one run of 217. I believe they ran concurrently as one is normal M.D. Ogden marked, and one is private label (so far the small amount of observations show this)

Here is the second run of 217, an exciting find!

Dial

Wow that is a real beauty Rick!

Harry

That is a nice one rick
Please can you provide photography info ?
That looks so much better than thE iPad Camera that I use.
Thanks
Regards
Mike

Thank you both! It was a very exciting find.

Mike,

My photos are just my 2 year old Motorola smartphone and daylight through the window or on the porch. I find the best days to get a good picture is when it's a little cloudy so the sun isn't directly beaming down. Sounds strange but works well. It was suggested to me by some long time collectors and so far it's the best way I've seen. Unless your a professional with heavy duty equipment, which I'm not! If you get the right angle in the daylight, you can show the bluing on the hands or screws.

In the Grade 17 Ferry thread I got a bit excited and started rambling about the 18 and 19. Low production, jeweled in pairs with a Bi-metallic balance

Here is the grade 19 marked M.D. Ogden. They are not all marked Ogden, we've uncovered two variations of the stemwinders so far. It looks like the second run does not contain M.D. Ogden marked movements.

Two runs. Total of 600

First run 345001-345400.
Second. 345601-345800.

This is 345180, it has a completely correct Elgin dial and a sliding set lever. Still retains it's keywind arbor.

It's not the most beautiful Gilt, but with something like this you have to take what you can get! I'm thrilled.

Dial

Nice example Rick! I see it has a lever, it looks like the conventional pull type lever. Is it?

Harry

Hi Harry, thanks! No it's not a normal lever, it's one of the slide levers

Oh, I have one of those in an Elgin and a Waltham. You need three hands to set them. I don't believe my Walthams have the little 90 degree bend like your Elgin and I don't remember if my Elgin does or not but if yours does I am sure mine does.

Harry

Harry they are originally flat and long. Many times they have been bent up or shortened by previous owners to either make it fit a case (because they are very long and hit the lid). Or bent up to make setting easier. I'm sure we are not the first people to find these annoying to set!