I found a book in a used book store. It is by Waltham and is called the Watchmakers Handbook. It consists of 35 pages of Waltham information and their suggested way of doing repairs and cost me a whole $2.00. I have been asked why do I insist on cutting the staffs when I can just get the tools and punch them. I have the tools and refuse to use them. People are under the impression that punching is OK but as stated in the Waltham book it damages the balance wheel. When I do a watch for a customer I can say it was done right. I know the pivots are still in line with the center of the balance wheel hole and that I have not damaged anything in the process. After the staff replacement I spin it up in the lathe to be sure it is true in all directions.I have posted the page for you to read. Hold down the Ctrl key and rotate your mouse wheel to magnify it.

but do all of can have lathe to cut the staff out?

I realize not all of you have a lathe or even the punch tools so send it out and have it done properly. If you have a drill motor and the chuck closes tight place the staff in the chuck and use a graver to cut the tag off. You might have to duck tape the drill to the table.

Patrick...You and I are in the minority on this one. I have steadfastly held to my guns that using a tool to force a riveted staff out distorts the hole in the balance arm, but others have poo-pooed that notion. I've said it before and I'll say it again...Just because someone makes a tool to do a job, that doesn't mean it's a GOOD tool OR a better way. Elgin did make a grooved balance staff for use in their Berly-X balance arms. This combination allowed for the staff to be driven out, but Elgin still recommended great care. I can always tell when a staff has been replaced by the driving out method. The watch comes to me with need for another staff and after I cut the old one out, the replacement staff is loose in the hole. Needless to say, what should have been a routine, easy job now becomes more of a challenge. Tearing a rivet through a hole can't help but do some sort of damage, and yet we will find folks who will insist on defending this method. Me...I'll do it the old fashioned way and cut them out.

Well I am in the minority with you both as well then Patrick & Roger, as I definately prefer the lathe method.

till I get the lathe I will have to do the wrong way.
Sorry no hard fillings.

We all agree that the best way to remove a staff is with the least damage to the balance wheel.

I totally agree that with a razor-sharp graving tool, a Watch Maker's lathe in class A condition good eyesight and knowledge of where to make the hand-held cut, the staff can be cleanly de-riveted.

Experience and good tools will do the job. I marvel at the slick little ring the #50 staff removing tool. By following the instructions (below) it will shear off the old balance staff cleanly at the rivet hub face.

I often see a deep chamfer left in the cross arm of a wheel that has had the old staff machined out. that is why I prefer the #50 because it will not remove any of the surface around the staff mounting hole which makes re-riveting a new staff in place much easier.

I did a pictorial on this at:

Balance Staff Removal Instructions

This is something I have still not tried. Looking at David's way looks like it would work if you use the "correct" tools as he has referred to many times. I have talked with my watchmaker about this and he still does it the old way, but has many friends, watchmakers, that do it Davids way with great sucess.

My question is the staff. I am told that they are almost always not the right size. Is that correct?

Regards,
Larry

The staffs are another issue. A "light press fit" is a MUST on all balance staff parts. If the balance wheel is too loose, it may still "rivet", but it is sure to go off-center and be nearly impossible to "poise" correctly.

While re-staffing, I carefully save the "old" staff to visually compare the major shape to the "replacement" and mechanically (with my vernier caliper) measure and compare ALL fitment diameters of the staffs both "old" and "new".*

A "correct replacement" staff should measure the same to within about 0.0005" (0.013 mm) of the "old" staff. Some will be double that.

After I have fitted the staff pivots to the top and bottom pivot jewels, and as a part of the final staff assembly process, I "test fit" ALL (Balance wheel, Roller[s], hairspring collet) assembly parts and (using my staking tools) re-size them to a light press fit on the new staff.

Special attention must be paid to early (Especially 18s Waltham) Rollers which can be "glass hard" and will instantly split in two if forced on to an oversize staff shank.

Occasionally you will find a staff that has been "adapted" to the balance wheel possibly including the butchering of all the other components, their fitment diameters, and even re-clearancing the jewel fittings. My recommendation for that situation is to put the movement in the parts bin, or look for a parts movement which has all the correct parts you can "rescue" to try and restore the watch.

No body makes an Apple pie like Mom......No body makes two staffs exactly the same....Factories claimed .005 max difference between staffs, but its hard to find one that close.That's why I use blue steel staffs if I can get them. They are a factory staff pulled from the pile before they are finished and are still blue in color. They are almost always to long (A good thing) with a balance wheel hub that is too big. I cut it down to fit the watch. I never change the watch to fit the staff. I make the staff fit the watch...K&D makes a punch called a Star punch used to close holes in the roller tables and it will also work on a bal wheel. It is a Vicious little punch capable of a lot of damage quickly when used wrong. It's the one with the very sharp triangular tip. It may close or arrange the hole enough to make the staff fit for those staffs punched out. Question here is, Will it stay or will it come loose in 6 months?

Patrick, I apologize for any offense you take from my discussion of staff fitment. I try to give a balanced discussion on this matter including carefully describing the English/metric values because as you know, a 0.005 inch (0.13 mm) tolerance on balance staffs could cause the pivot to disappear completely while a 0.005 mm (0.0002 inch) tolerance should be the maximum acceptable deviation, although as noted in my post the "aftermarket" staffs can and will deviate more than that.

Want my opinion? If you're a person skilled enough to replace a balance staff or just repair watches in general, chances are you're caring enough to do such intricate work properly. You're also a person who is sensitive enough to be appalled whenever a new repair is undertaken and you soon discover that someone before you has chosen to employ undue force to bully cooperation from some hapless, tiny, delicate little watch part. A watchmakers lathe, in the most basic form will not cost very much for a decent, true running example and it is a necessary tool for cutting away the rivet and undermining the remaining interior portion of the balance staff...exactly as the Waltham tutorial describes. With a little practice and a very sharp carbide point, the old staff should almost fall away with no force required. And by all means, learn how to do this without carving up the hole!

There. I said it. No hard feelings!

William

Patrick, I cannot seem to make the print larger. Can you send it to my email?

larrylamphier@aol.com

David, thank you for that info. I really think that before I decide to do this I will be getting a lathe. At least I know how to use one of them!!

Regards,
Larry

David, No offense taken. This is a club open for discussions and with out input nothing would work. Your post is most welcome.
William, you sound like a man of the old school of do it right or don't do it at all.
My first lathe was a drill motor "C" clamped to the table top and a small C" clamp to keep the trigger pulled. I had a graver that resembled a 6 penny nail and a whole bunch of files and got along fine until I was given a box with a bunch of parts in it and turned it into a lathe for $40.00.
Lawrence, your email will arrive by the end of the day.
William, thanks for your input.
According to this Waltham manual the secret to cutting it properly is to have the lathe on the slowest speed and a super sharp graver.

Dave is correct in his statement that we all agree the best way to remove a staff is with the least damage to the balance wheel.

If someone cuts the staff out on a lathe and leaves a chamfer, then there is damage to the balance. Properly done, there should be no damage to the balance when cut out on the lathe. On the other hand, there is ALWAYS damage to some degree when the staff removing tool is used. You simply can't sheer a rivet thru a hole without doing some kind of damage, even if it is minimal. The second, third, etc. time exacerbates the problem. I have personally never seen the chamfer condition, but I have seen MANY oversize holes after cutting out a staff. The only logical conclusion I can draw is that previous staffs were driven out and the hole enlarged. When I try numerous staffs and they are all loose in the hole, what other explanation is there?

So...did someone invent a tool that does the job? Sure they did and the first time it might not cause too much damage. The second and subsequent replacements do more and more damage so tell me why we would want to use this method today when we are not in a production environment where time is money? Would I save a few minutes on a staff job using the tool? Maybe, but I will NEVER compromise what I feel is a correct methodology for the sake of saving time.

BTW, I have an Elgin service bulletin that shows enlarged microscopic pictures of hole damage when a staff has been driven out.

While we are on the subject of staffs & balance wheels and tools to do the job, Seitz and others make a tool for straighting pivots. Just because the tool is made does not mean that I have to use it. I would never straighten a pivot, I will instead replace it. Once bent the pivot is weakened and when bent back it becomes ever weaker yet. It WILL soon break. Just replace it and be done with it. As for staffs be sure to check the clearance or side play of the new staff in the jewel. There are many types of jewels out there and some are very cheap and will wear very fast leaving the pivot to wobble in the hole. When I replace a jewel I use a new jewel and set it into the setting and check it and then place the setting in the watch part and finally re-install the endstone and the screws. Speaking of which, if you have any jewels to sell let me know. I am into staff replacing and re-jeweling and buy raw jewels.

While we have all the staff experts here...

Scenario:

Movement w/ cracked top balance jewel and both pivots broke. Replaced top jewel with factory correct jewel - seats perfect. Replace staff. During free spin of just staff and balance wheel with puff of air spins in all positions and wheel is true. Put on roller table - flush. Put on safety roller - flush. Put on hairspring - sitting corretly.

However, when complete and put back together and running - balance wheel looks out of true. Went back and double checked bottom jewel, and looks ok. When gently grabbing side of balance wheel tiny bit of play up and down.

What gives???

"balance wheel looks out of true"

Please explain, is this a "wobble", or a general condition where the wheel axis appears out of square with the movement.

As both of the original staff pivots were broken, I would check if the bottom pivot jewel got "blown out" (oversize) because that can allow some strange behavior of the balance staff and wheel.

It looks like wobble - as the complete balance wheel moves it looks like there are highs and lows to it (traveling up and down - wavy - when viewed from the side)


There is no rubbing while running and the motion seems ok - just looks a bit odd

Might as well change out the bottom jewel, too

A simple "wobble" can be the wheel itself being out of square to the axis of the newly assembled staff. That you can check with a Balance wheel trueing caliper.

As soon as you spin the wheel in the caliper the condition becomes very clear.

Dave is right on with his theory. But make sure you are using the proper end (side) of the calipers. Also on the wobble of the staff (Wheel) I have used blue staffs and cut the ends to fit for the end shake. Do not grind the staff off, Cut it off.

I just posted a Caliper trivia if you care to read it