Yeah, okay, laugh if you must. I purchased a number of beautiful colored fancy dials at Regionals today. Several do not have feet. Are there other ways to add "FOOTLESS" dials to movements or did I get taken?

Stephanie O'Neil
NAWCC Member 143979

Stephanie,there are little double-sided stickys called "dial dots" that can be used.Also, new dial feet can be soldered into place,so there are at least 2 ways to use those footless dials.Oh,and there are little tiny crutches that............

Sam Williamson
NAWCC 154312
IHC Charter Member 14
Member Chapters 96 and 185

How about a "Rascal" then the tired old dials could just ride around on it!

But seriously Stephanie, the dials without feet can have feet soldered on, but they go back where they were originally located. And yes, Sam is right about other less costly methods of attachment. Chances are the dials you bought in that condition would not fit anything of consequence or they would not have been reduced to that condition in the first place.

Often such dials are placed on movements they were not intended for, then palmed off on an unsuspecting buyer. Not always, but most often such dials were removed from inexpensive watches. Here's the test... Do any of them have names you recognize? And if they do what condition are they in?

Hi Sam,

Huummm --- dial dots! Soldering sounds good. Mini-crutches! Ha!!! Thanks Sam.

Lindell,

Why would someone cut dial feet to begin with? The several dials that do not have feet are Waltham and Perfection, in good condition.

Stephanie O'Neil
NAWCC Member 143979

Stephanie,

Most often when the dial-feet, or perhaps to describe their function more clearly "mounting-pins" have been removed it is so the dial might then be used on another type of movement. Here's an example...

Early Hamilton 16-size movements below about 872000 used dials with four feet on them. The Montgomery Patent or marginal-minute dials in the four-footed configuration are quite uncommon. Unscrupulous sellers will remove the feet from a perfect three-footed dial and place it on an early movement in order to sell the watch at a premium price. A few years ago, I purchased such a watch. It took the next several years of searching to finally find the correct dial. That was a very expensive lesson for me!

The dials you have lost the feet either because the dial had to be cut from a junk movement or because someone had in mind using them on a movement with a different configuration. Now, in order for them to be correctly used new feet would have to be carefully soldered in place. There are a number of people in this hobby quite capable of taking care of that job.

The fancy looking dial with "Perfection" on it came from a watch of little consequence, but with the dial feet removed that dial can now be placed on another watch and re-sold to an unsuspecting buyer. The "Waltham" marked dial can now likewise be placed on another movement for which it was not originally intended. As I explained above, more often than not the dials such as you bought are re-sold with a deceptive intent.

The only other reason I am aware of to explain why we find the dial feet removed is dial collectors doing so in order to keep them in a book like one would color slides or trading cards. They remove the feet in order to not rip the display sleeve. We tend to frown on such practices. We are after all Caretakers of Horological History and that means keeping that history correct and in-tact.

Frankly there's no nice way to say it. Like I told you above... "Often such dials are placed on movements they were not intended for, then palmed off on an unsuspecting buyer." And that is something we just would not, in good conscience, do to the watch or to the next buyer.

That's my opinion, there may be other viewpoints.

Lindell

Lindell,

I now have a much better understanding of dials with or without mounting pins thanks to your explanation. Thanks again.


Stephanie O'Neil
NAWCC Member 143979

Stephanie,

Elgin removed the dial feet on doctor's watch dials. They did this so that the dial could be fitted to the movement as open face or hunter.

Because of case fit problems, I had to make my own dial feet from some 12 gage copper wire. The picture shows the the dial feet attached using "JB Weld".

John D. Duvall
Vice President, Education

"Perfection" was a product of the New York Standard Watch Company, which made watches that were a small step ahead of dollar watches. I've seen a few "Perfection" dials that were really nice, but unfortunately, as Lindell suggests, they fit watches that aren't ever likely to be considered very noteworthy.

The following is a link to a photo collage of a few of the "fancy" dials in my collection. Unfortunately, the image is 352 kb, which is too large for hosting on our server here, so it's in my AOL space instead.

One additional reason that dials sometimes have their feet "amputated" is so that people can use them to make "collage jewelry." Typically, a fancy watch dial will become the "centerpiece" of a broach composed of buttons, coins, plastic flowers, and a bunch of other junk, all hot-glued together, and with a broach pin on the back. In such a "creation," the dial feet only get in the way, and are typically clipped off with wire cutters.

A few years ago, I happened to attend the estate auction of an elderly lady who had passed away. I can't remember why I went (presumably for something that was advertised), but entirely to my surprise, I discovered the lady had specialized in making exactly the sort of "collage jewelry" just described. There were boxes and boxes of watch parts, including hundreds (maybe thousands) of wheels, and about 40 dials for American pocket watches, including one Waltham and two Rockfords for wind-indicator models. Needless to say, I bought the entire lot.

As a curious note, a lady I met at the auction saw me purchase the watch material, and mentioned that there were some additional watch parts in a lot she'd already purchased and loaded. She told me that if I was interested in them, she'd set them out for me at her house where I could pick them up. At the appointed time, I went to the ladies home, and sure enough, there was a little sack of parts she'd set out for me, which among other things, contained another Rockford WI dial. I tried to pay her for the stuff, but she wouldn't take anything.

For what it's worth, a primary concern when attempting to attach a pocket watch dial to a movement it doesn't fit, is the distance between the center hole, and the hole for the second hand. That distance varies slightly from model to model, and from brand to brand, so that any particular two are not necessarily interchangeable. Also, as a curious note, the dials from 16s Elgins and 16s Ingersoll Trentons are perfectly interchangeable; their hole distances are exactly the same, as are the locations of all three dial feet. I have no idea what the reason is for that, but it's too much of a coincidence to have been accidental.

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John -- I hate to ask, but I gotta know.... Why did you install dial feet on a "snap-fit" dial? I have a watch that needs a dial like that, and I figured I'd never find one!

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Steve Maddox
President, NAWCC Chapter #62
North Little Rock, Arkansas
IHC Charter Member 49

Steve,

The dial would not "snap on". When I received the watch, the only thing holding the dial in place were the hands. To complicate matters more, the case did not have a lip area to catch pillar plate. The dial rim would catch on the case and with dial feet to connect the dial to the pillar plate, I was able to secure the movement in the case. The JB weld came loose on two feet due to the tension stress even though the case screws were lightly torqued.

Although the case appeares to be original, I can't see how they kept the movement in the case. I'm currently looking for a replacement open or hunter case for it. The current case will not hold a 16s movement. The movement is all original with matching plate numbers and balance.

Any ideas Steve?

John D. Duvall
Vice President, Education

John,

My idea is that if all that's holding the movement in the case is the dial feet, you'd better be glad they didn't stay stuck! The copper dial plate is much too thin to support the movement without breaking the enamel off it.

My guess would be that it's simply the wrong case for an American movement, but it might be missing an "inner ring," which would have covered the case springs, and made the case more dust resistant, as well as making the space around the movement significantly smaller.

In any event, you're definitely going to have to figure out some way to support the movement in a case without involving the dial, or you're surely going to break it. Of that, I am absolutely certain.

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Steve Maddox
President, NAWCC Chapter #62
North Little Rock, Arkansas
IHC Charter Member 49

Steve,

As I said, the screws were never really torqued down as you would normally, just seated enough to keep the movement from flopping around during winding. Yes, you are correct, it is a good way to crack a dial.

I believe the case is a 14k gold filled J.Boss (crown & scales). It has a hinged front bezel and hinged rear back and cuvette. The diameter where the lip should be measures 43.17 mm. I measured some other 16s cases and the diameter of the lip ranges from 42.27 to 42.58 mm.

The male stem is integral to the movement with the female sleeve in the pendant. These cases are somewhat difficult to find. I don't have another Doctor's watch to compare this one to so I don't know if there was a tiny ring that was used around pillar plate to help capture the case. Even if the dial would snap into postion, I doubt that you could torque the case screws without popping it off.

Does anyone know the diameter of the pillar plate for a 17s size watch and did J.Boss make a case for a 17s watch? All I know is that an Elgin 16s movement of this vintage will not fit in this case. Maybe I have one of those rare cases that fit nothing. This case was not modified either. I guess it was my luck ending up with a case and movement dial that were both factory botch jobs.

John D. Duvall
Vice President, Education

John,

A lot of old J. Boss cases had an inner ring that was engraved: "J. Boss, 14k gold...." etc. As you noted, the backs have the "scale" stamp indicating gold filled, but without the movement, an unsuspecting buyer might well think he/she was buying a solid gold case (which was probably the intention).

The inner rings in cases of this sort look very similar to the dust rings for regular movements, except that they're a little thicker and more substantial. They fit in from the front, and "bottom-out" against the inside rim where the case screws hold the movement. With this ring removed, there's little (if any) evidence that anything's missing.

I'd say that's very likely the situation you have, and if so, the only remedy will probably be to fabricate a new spacer of your own. There are lots of ways to do that (probably the best involves a large piece of brass and an engine lathe), but just knowing what you need, you're an unusually talented and resourceful fellow, and I'm sure you can come up with something!

As always, if I can be of assistance, don't hesitate to get in touch with me at your convenience!

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SM

Thanks Steve!

You've unraveled the puzzle that's been stumping me now for two years. Now that I know what is missing, a new search begins. Sounds like a good post for our "Wanted to Buy" section. I'm sure someone has one of these rings from a worn out case somewhere in their stash.

John D. Duvall
Vice President, Education

Stephanie,

This is a little 0s size with a solid 14k case. Jack is about 6" to the rear and out of focus because of the larger aperature setting.

John D. Duvall
Vice President, Education

John do you find those 0 size harder to work on?
That is a nice Elgin, is that pink on the dial or is it just caused from light or a angle ?

IHC Member 261
Chapter 111,Ottawa
NAWCC Member 158976,
Nepean, Canada

Kevin,

The dial does have a pink center to it. I'm getting a little better with the camera's white balance and this is the first pic taken with my new camera that I didn't have to do any color adjustment. I did one touchup on it, can you find where it was at?

The 0s watches are harder (for me) to work on because the parts are smaller. Otherwise, they are just like the larger sizes. Balance work would be the toughest.

John D. Duvall
Vice President, Education

John,
About the touch up, it is the black background, isn´t it? Nice picture and nicer watch.
Carlos Flores

Thank you Carlos,

The background is just a piece of black fabric. I wasn't added in after the picture but it did need some touchup in one area.

John D. Duvall
Vice President, Education

¿the bow?, has a shadow area in the left side that should not happen as ligth is coming from right side.
(if not, can you set a prize for the one that get it?)

Carlos,

You are correct about the light but the photo was taken with the watch at an angle to the light source, so the bow is normal in that regard.

John D. Duvall
Vice President, Education

John says "the bow is normal in that regard"

-- are we being rather precise in this response? I think the bow is still the issue. I think the watch must have been suspended by a thin cord through the bow (can I see a ghost of it above the watch?) and the image was touched up to make the bow complete where covered by the suspending cord.

All right Sir, Place your hands on top of the car. Anything you say can and will be used against... oh you know!

Carlos gets the prize!



Say, speaking of dial feet did you hear the story of the dial that cried because he had no hands until he met the dial who had no feet?

I know... it's late!

Okay, okay, it was suspended in mid-air by dental floss. I thought it would give a 3D effect to it.

John D. Duvall
Vice President, Education

John D.,
Thanks for showing us an Elgin Doctor's watch dial and steps in attaching dial feet.

Steve M.,
Thanks for the info. on "Perfection" dials. You've got an awesome fancy dial collage and of course I thoroughly enjoyed! One is as unique as the other and all so beautiful. Fancy dial pocket watches are my favorites to collect.

Question, How do you determine the manufacture of an unsigned dial? i.e. "B", "D", "E", "F", "G" and "H"? Am I right in thinking strictly by the movement?

John D.,
I love Jack's little O size Fancy Dial Elgin. Jack's kinda cute too! Thanks!!

Stephanie O'Neil
NAWCC Member 143979

Stephanie,

I'm glad you enjoyed the mini-collection!

As for the identities of the unsigned dials, "E" was easy, as it has 4 feet, and early 16s Hamiltons are essentially the only watches with that characteristic. "F," G," and "H" are all attached to complete Swiss watches, so that makes them fairly obvious as well. "B" and "D" were tougher, and in fact, I didn't initially know what they fit myself. That determination can be made by trying the dials on different movements, comparing the foot locations to those of other dials of known make, or by using an ID chart that's in the front of Roy Ehrhardt's "Amrican Pocket Watches Identification and Price Guide, Beginning to End."

Personally, I use the chart!



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SM