I have this 1907 Elgin 17J WMW size 18 watch. I don't know much about Elgin's. I know the hands are not correct and I suspect the dial is to old for the 1907 movement but I don't know. The serial number is 13330720. Does this dial belong with this movement?
Thanks,
Harry

movement

Harry, Elgin referred to themselves as "Elgin National Watch Co." at least through the first decades of the 1900's (pic from my old coll.) and while they may have reduced the dial signature to just "Elgin" on some watches and "National" was common in the late 1800's, maybe this could have been original to the watch.

The hands are another matter. They would look nice on a Model 8 or 9 3/4 plate 18s but this guy would look more authentic with a pair of fine spade hands.

Harry, by 1907 they were toward the end of the script fancy English Elgin with Fleur-de-lis on either side and into the simple block letter Elgin so I would say the dial is early for this movement.

Thank both of you. I think I will play it safe and put the ENWC dial in script on it. I like the RR track dials and I have already put the thin spade hands on it.

(ACTUALLY I JUST CHECK WITH ANOTHER FRIEND AND HE SAID THAT THE SCRIPT CAME BEFORE THE BLOCK "ENWC" AND I HAVE A PARTS WATCH WITH A LOT LOWER SERIAL NUMBER THAT VERIFIES THAT) SO I NOW THINK DAVID IS RIGHT AND THAT THE BLOCK LETTERING "ENWC" DIAL IS ORIGINAL. BUT I DO LIKE THE SCRIPT BETTER. ARGGGGGG!

You can go with the block Elgin font if you wish, it should be pseudo double sunk or double sunk. The 342 and later typically had the block font vs the <<Elgin>> font.

Dial and hands are wrong, this is a good grade movement, not many made and I can't quite tell what the marking is on the movement (GMW etc)

As an Elgin collector this is an interesting watch. I have a number of G.M.Wheeler marked movements but I have never seen one marked on the spring barrel bridge before. The majority of time they are marked on the main plate above the balance wheel. Thanks for sharing this with us; I have something new to key an eye out for

Thank you Claude. I have replaced the hands with spade hands and as you know Claude I am not an Elgin collector I am an eye candy collector and I was attracted to the beautiful movement and yes it is a GMW. Since I don't have much Elgin stuff I guess I need to look for the DS dial. Thanks again Claude as usual you are keeping me straight on my Elgin stuff.

Thank you Serge. I agree about the placement of the GMW script but I had not even noticed that since I am not an Elgin collector. I just collect eye candy. Here is another Elgin I picked up that I like. It is a BWR and I haven't seen one with the little swirl's before. I'm sure there are a lot out there but I have never seen them so I bid on this one and one. The seller says it is a grade 27.

Harry

On the 353, it will come with no markings other than ENWC or GMW or Overland and if you look on the Elgin site only about 11K were produced. They will be marked "Adjusted" or later ones marked "A3P". The pseudo DS I mention most people call pressed centers type but an 18s DS with Elgin block font should be easy enough to find.

Thanks Claude I have started looking but so far all I have found is HC DS dials. I'm not sure but I think Elgin uses a different foot pattern for OF vs HC movements. I need an OF dial. It should not be to difficult to find.

Thanks again,
Harry

Hunter or OF, no biggie since they will work fine as long as they are not for 3/4 plate 18s. I will look to see if I have the pressed center version laying around and let you know what I find.

Ok thanks Claude. No that I know I can use the dial on either that should make it a lot easier to find.

Harry

Hi Harry,

I fully understand the desire and appeal of the eye candy these watches provide! Do a Google search for the Elgin "Lace Doilies" pocket watches. The three finger bridge model is one of the most beautiful movements they made IMHO.

Hi Serge,

Yes I agree. I actually bid on one of those one time (the only time I ever saw one for sale). Needless to say I did not win the bid.

Harry

Like this?
One of my favorites, but I guess we are way off the subject!

Yes Steve eye candy. I like the Elgin 3 finger bridges and although I have several with black script I do not have any with the gold script like yours. Nice. I don't know much about these Elgins but I notice the pattern on the wheels are different. Are they suppose to be different?

Harry

Cluade I have this dial. It is not DS just indented for the lack of a better word. Would this dial be better than the one that is on it?

Thanks,
Harry

Yes Harry, it is a 2 piece dial rather than the true 3 piece double sunk dial. They were made to give the look of a double sunk with less labor involved. You find them on the mid to lower 17j Elgin grades, the higher 17j grades like the BWR and such would have had true double sunk dials.

Thanks Claude I will put that dial on until I find a real DS dial. So is the GMW a higher grade like the BWR?
Thank
Harry

If you can find a DS dial, and a DS version of the style you have on it now or a <<Elgin>> would work. These grades are adjusted and the later ones were marked as a3p and since by 1919 the 18s was waving bye bye I doubt that Elgin would upscale (added positions) to a grade that falling out of favor. If you want to have some fun find this grade with Overland, and no marking to complete the trio.

Hi Claude,
I have an Overland I purchased from our very own Gary Cochran sn 10124952 and one that looks like an Overland (same pattern) but is unmarked sn 14424106. So I guess I have all three?

Not trying to steal Harry's question, but I have an 18s OF gilded G.M. Wheeler, just like the one Dave pictured above.I always thought all Wheelers were an adjusted grade, mine isn't, and no jewel count marked on it either.Would that be a 15 jewel, or a "cheater" 11 jewel? Thanks, Ted.

Harry, I have the open face version of the nice looking B.W.Raymond you posted, mine's a gr. 180 about the same age.About the same fancy damaskeening and lettering.It's a great running watch, I know they're pretty common, but eye candy for sure!!

Yea since I don't normally collect Elgin's I don't look for these but when one pops up and I like it I try to get it. I had never seen a Elgin with the little flowers or snow flakes or whatever you call them. Hamilton and Hampden use them quit a bit. As for the GMW that you have I don't have any idea if they made them adjusted and un-adjusted. but you probably need to list the serial number so someone can let you know if it is 11 jewel or 15 jewel.

Harry,
I have several Lace Doilies ,and they all have that same pattern on the winding wheels. As far as I've seen they are all the same.

Steve

I have only seen one Steve. Thanks. They are gorgeous movements.