Recently we had some discussion of what is a railroad watch. This just showed up on my doorstep. What say you, is this an an Ingersoll Trenton Double Sunk Dialed Railroad watch?

These are just some "quicky" shots. That writing undr the Balance cock says; "Adjusted FIVE Positions, Temperature, Isochronism" . . .

I do not see a setting lever, more after I have looked it over, acleaned it, and so forth . . .

btw nobody bid it so it "sold" for 66.00. That is about 25% of Cooksey's "1 star" valuation.

Dave I don't think the Trenton was ever claimed to be RR approved, but I did comment that it was probably RR grade, these are very nice watches. There were some pendant set watches that were RR approved but I think the Trenton 19J was made too late to be considered RR approved since it is pendant set, but again if some railroads were still accepting pendant set watches when the Trenton 19J was made what would prevent it from being acceptable? Many collectors consider the Trenton to be trash which is why I made my comment. I do have one question when you took it apart for cleaning what was your impression of the quality? How is it running at the moment also? Pendant sets like the Elgin grade 161 were considered RR approved but that time frame was 1895-1899, at what time were pendant set watches cut off is up in the air since so many of the regulations are missing/lost. Many people would laugh at you if one were to suggest a 17 adj3 position watch would have been accepted as late as 1949.

quote:

There are surly watch collectors that if you say a Ingersoll-Trenton or a Trenton 19J is RR approved they will jump up and down and throw temper tantrums and acuse you of having poo-poo for brains. The watch is 19j adjusted to 5 positions so I there is no reason for it to not be RR approved, especially when pendent set watches were still accepted in RR use, at the minimum they would be RR grade. Mine is a later version since it is marked Ingersoll-Trenton rather than being marked Trenton. It is a nice watch and I would suggest one to anyone who is willing to get off the beaten path.

In the case of the Ingersoll-Trenton it would have been produced after 1908 after Ingersoll purchased Trenton, so any 19J Trenton would have been made prior to 1908.

In diassembly and cleaning I must note that this stank of of organic oil stuff, the broken Mainspring gave cause (I Think) to save this rare movement for restoral today! Nifty Design, Pendant Wind and set. Looks a lot better cleaned and running

Swiss-Made dial, true Double sunk, Porcelain on a watch that STILL THINKS IT CAN RUN A RAILROAD! Interesting that I/T capped the Pallet fork pivot jewels on a 17 Jewel movement to go "up" to 19.

Given that this is a "Two Star" rare, Triple Signed, Extra Fine Condition, Strong Running Railroad Adjusted watch, WHAT would it be "worth" if the dial said "Hamilton", or "Illinois", or "Elgin" . . .

Personally, you will not see this on eBay. It stays in my "core" collection and it is hardly alone there . . .

Great job, Dave,and a great looking watch and probably a very good time keeper....After you have finished with it, it probably would "Run a Rail Road...."

Great Job on the restoration....as usual....

Regards,

Jerry

David I think I paid ~$100 for my 19J Ingersoll-Trenton and it impressed me as a very good watch. That is why I mentioned people should give them a look, nice looking, good quality movement, definitely by no means a dollar watch. Mine was operational so that is why I wondered what it looked like when you had it apart.
By the way the last RR regulation I could find that allowed a pendant set watch was up to 1908.

Claude, the train is sorta "Elgillinois", the fit and finish looke like a lot of hand work to make it all go together.

Interesting that the Ingersoll dial has the same font as one of my Seth DS dials.

Great looking watch David! And thank you again for bringing to life watches that typically go unnoticed or are underappreciated.

Great watch and an interesting discussion.

Donald Summer published in the December 1984 ***** Bulletin (pp 677-684) a detailed research article on Ingersoll-Trenton production. Regarding these 19 Jewel watches, he reported; "Of fifteen 19-jewel movements known . . . three are in the 3419501-800 block, seven are in the 3425401-900 block, four are in the 3450001-200 block, and one is in the 3,422001-200 block - as are four 17 Jewel movements". Suggesting that these were mixed in production with 17 Jewel movvements.

My "new" addition is serial number 3419469, which pre-dates or slightly extends the first block reported.

Donald also reported that all Ingersol-Trenton named movements made fall within a 220,000 s/n range of 3239721-3467222.

We must conclude then that as collectibles, Ingersol-Trenton named watches are very rare. Also as a 1500 maximum of 19 Jewel models (Advertised as "21 Jewel performance at 15 Jewel prices") were likely to have been produced, this and Claude's example are noteworthy indeed!

Dave I will post some better close up pictures of mine dial/movement. On interesting fact that you mention is that the dial is Swiss, it could be that Trenton/Ingersoll-Trenton went to some of the Swiss dial makers and took bids on the dial, which would have saved some cost (competitive bidding rather than making it yourself)I wonder if there were other components like the balance wheel etc that could have been Swiss components. You don't see these show up on ebay that often so I jumped on mine when it popped up, the fact that no one else bid on the one you have shows how little attention they get at times. I have seen some that have both dished winding wheels like yours or the smaller dished winding wheel like mine, so that might be run related (early both dished and later runs only one dished) or it might be break related.

Claude, I agree with you that some Swiss-made parts (and the dial for sure) are used here as these are Double Roller movements while the lower jewelled watches were single roller.

Here are some pictures of mine in a bit larger size. The serial number on mine is 3,425,575 and my dial has blue 5 min markers rather than red 5 min markers. You will also notice that mine is from a different block and my large wind wheel is not dished but the small one is. I have seen at least one other 19J like mine so I don't know if the change occured because of a run change or a part change. I have also seen others with both dished. I know other companies jeweled the barrel, is there an advantage if you capped the pallet fork, barrel etc, is one preferred over the other options?
Dial

movement

Our discussions about extra (above 17) Jeweling many (including myself) have concluded that the best place to add Jewels would be on the Barrel wheel bearings that drive the wheel train (such as 16s Elgin 19J BW Raymond), the next "best", is to cap the Escapement wheel pivots (some Elgins, etc.).

The choice by Ingersol/Trenton to cap the Pallet jewels as far as I am concerned only for "show" because the Pallet Pivots are straight, so the caps could as well have been metal "dust covers".

Dave,I am looking at an Ingersoll Trenton 15j, pendant set movement on the Bay for about $40.00. Needs a new mainspring, and a new balance staff. Dial isn't too bad. Was thinking of having Chris work on it. I thought it would be just a neat less expensive carry watch. Is this worth it? Brad

Hi All,

I have one of these as well, serial#3419529 a little different to the one you have shown David, as the flat large winding wheel is held with a collar not a normal screw. It is maked adjusted on the winding bridge aa well as being maked under the balance with "adjusted five positions. and temperature, isochronism". This example has the blue 5 minute markers as Claude's does. I will post some pictures later as I am busy with a 'John Hancock 21 Jewel' at present.

Regards to All,
Bila