Chris Abell has restored my 1880 Elgin Doctor's watch No. 743074, which was a challenge.

This Grade 83 is 15 jewel, 16 size, and was overbanked with a bent pallet, and missing it's sweep second hand--the main feature of the doctor's watch. Elgin made 3200 of these in 4 runs from 1879 to 1881, and this is number 274.
It now runs within 45 seconds a day after Chris did his magic, along with complete disassembly, clean and oiling.
I found 7 sweep second hands, but spade style instead of the proper moon style, on eBay and bought them for $45, mounted on an Elgin card. Chris used one of these for my watch and I gave him the rest to help others find one of these hands. Someday I hope to snag a moon style.

These are pretty scarce, but don't rate a aingle "star" among collectors. They rank pretty high with me! No more than a handful of these usually come up for sale in a year on eBay as a complete watch. It is almost impossible to find a case for one of these Grade 83 (gilded, 3200 made) or Grade 84 (nickel, 4000 made) movements since the fourth wheel sticks up above the main plate and has that little extra bridge that is also elevated. So the case has to be a little thicker than an ordinary 16s.

Here's a great look at a Grade 84 in nickel, and with case details. In my opinion the 83 gilded is more attractive and Chris really brought out the beauty in this little beast. My grade 83 is housed in an identical case to the Doctor's Grade 84 shown here, but I believe my case is original and not from a convertible--mine has the second lever slot but no retaining screw.

Finally, Chris Abell gets all the credit for this work, and he even took the photos! It's important to me that Chris' devotion to these projects on IHC185 deserves all the recognition we can arrange, and his skill and attention to these tiny details is often inadequately reflected in what he charges. Thank you also to Brian C. and Dave Abbe for trying very hard to find the correct moon style sweep second hand that has proven to be elusive. It took me over six months to find the spade style, but the results are worth it to have this Elgin Doctor's watch running, and to see that sweep second hand moving around its original, elegant dial. What a joy to see, hold and hear. Thank you, Chris.

John,
A beautiful watch, I especially like the dial!
Chris's talents have brought a couple of my watches back from the dead. There is little doubt he is a master watchmaker.

You have a very fine timepiece! Chris has done another outstanding job bringing it back to life. He is a wizard when it comes to watch repair. And Brian and Dave, although not able to find the moon style hand, always are willing to help with any project. I love the dial on it!

John,

Really nice watch! I obtained a grade 89 Doctor's Watch a couple of years ago. It keeps great time. I've always wondered what these watches sold for when they were new. There does not seem to be much interest in these watches for some reason. Other than the Elgin database I've not been able to find out very much about them.

Regards,

Bob

Beautiful watch John. Congrats to Chris, another masterpiece!

Bob, that is all you could ask for in a beautiful Doctor's watch.
Your 13-jewel Grade 89 is the first one I have seen, and it is one of only 1000 made, all of them in a single 1881 run. It would be interesting to see a photo of the movement and front of the dial with the bezel open, for comparison, if you have them. These cases are so rare to see. And no, there is no other information I have come across on these old 1880-era center-seconds watches.
There is interest in these anytime one comes up for auction on eBay--almost always sell in the range of $500-$600 in a gold-filled case. Of course that's only one or two a year. I think their rarity is the problem, Bob.
Does anyone else have a Doctor's watch, regardless of grade? Maybe post a photo for us to see?

I have a Movado ladies wrist watch with a red tipped sweep second hand. I don't know if it would be categorized the same as these beautiful pocket watches. I guess it could be called a nurses watch. I believe it is from the 40's or 50's. I can't post pictures as Chris has it at present. The sweep keeps "slipping" despite another watchmaker working on it twice. Hopefully Chris will be able to work his magic again. I'll try to post pictures in the wrist watch section when I get it back.

John,
Here are the pictures you requested. It appears that my watch has been recased sometime in the past. There is a name and address inscribed on the dust cover but I cannot make it out.

Regards,

Bob

movement

dust cover

Bob, thank you for posting the extra photos. I retrieved my watch today and compared the movement to yours using a loupe, and movement and the engraving are identical. Our watches are mirror images of each other, except for the moon center second hand on yours, and the presence of a screw in the stem. I'm way over my head here, but what does the screw in the stem mean if not a male stem on yours? And what does it mean that the case on my watch does not have a screw in the stem (see the photo above)? If both have a male stem, then how does differ? Would a 16s Model 3 Elgin's case work on these? The Model 3 has an identical layout to the plates. Here's a photo of a Grade 92 Elgin Model 3 in 16s with the same stem screw and plate layout. Thanks again for going to the trouble this morning to post your photos.

John,

Sorry for the slow reply. I was hoping that someone would bale me out and answer your question. I'm way over my head also. I really love watches but know very little about their mechanics. You really have a fine watch. Glad to post the pictures.

Regards,

Bob

John

Are you asking about the screw in the stem of the case? If so that should just be a screw that retains the stem in the case, basically does the same thing as a sleeve in a newer case, also some are held in place by a pin that is under where the bow attaches to the case. If that is not what you are asking about sorry.

Tom

John,

Just saw this on ebay. Moon Hands

Bob

Bob, thanks, that's a great tip...I am now watching this auction with interest. With a good magnifier in my hand I've gone over the moon hand photos and so far haven't found a center seconds hand there. It's a big pile of hands so I'll keep looking them over, and may buy these anyway.

Mary Ann, the (center) sweep seconds family of watches most definitely includes the wrist kind, and these are often called a doctor's watch too by the auction sellers. In the pocket watch group the Hamilton military watches 4992Bs from WWII have this sweep seconds hand and the fourth wheel to drive it. John

Tom, you're answering the right question. Both my watch and Bob's are Elgin doctor's watches and have the male stem (same as a 16s Elgin convertible, and a Model 3 Elgin), but my case does not have the stem screw while Bob's case does have it.
Where I'm headed with this line of thinking (which may be completely wrong) is this: will a doctor's watch fit in a Model 3 case? A convertible will fit in a Model 3 case. All of these have the male stem and are 16s, but I've read the doctor's watch is too "fat," is thicker because of the fourth wheel, to fit in an ordinary case.
From time to time a doctor's watch will come up for sale as a movement only, but is practically not a good purchase without a case...good for parts only. I'm looking for a work-around. Thanks for explaining the stem screw, Tom.
John

John

Well I hope my answer helped some, I can post a few photos if you like of the different ways stems were secured.

I have never owned a Doctor's watch but I do have a 16s convertible in a case that if you would like to see if yours will fit in the case I am willing to send you the case to try it out.

Tom

Tom, very kind of you to offer to send me the case to try a fit. I have bought a 16s convertible and it will arrive any day now.
But I would like to see photos of some different ways that stems are attached. I think this would be very helpful and I can benefit from your knowledge. Thank you, Tom.
John

i just now have found this post. i have been working on these doc elgins. i have one guided and one nickle. i have a post showing some work that i have had to do on one. this post reminded me of another oddity the guilded one has. It has a female "stem" rather than the male stem. it also has a smaller square hole than a regular elgin of this model. any ideas how or why?

Here is my Doctors Watch. It is also one of the prize watches in my collection.
"Hey I'm not a doctor, but I will take a look anyway!"
Leonard
PS
I was going to add a couple more pics, but don't do it enough to remember how to add more than one pic to a single post.

picture #2

pic #3

Here is a size 16 Convertible, notice the movement has the female end and the case a male stem. Usually you don't find these on convertibles, so I thought I would post a picture for anyone who may be interested.
Leonard

Nice looking watches Leonard, I haven't ever seen a convertible with the stem like that one. What is the serial number on it, I am curious if there were interchangeable winding arbors for those?

Tom

HI TOM,
SN IS 3507258 I HAVE 2 COVERTIBLES LIKE THIS AND THEY ARE THE ONLY 2 I HAVE EVER SEEN. ITS BEEN SO LONG I WOULDNT KNOW THE OTHER ONE UNLESS I TOOK THEM ALL APART. THE ARBOR IN BOTH ARE THE SAME AS THE MALE COUNTERPART EXCEPT FOR THE SQUARE HOLE.
LEONARD

I have only 3 or 4 convertibles & none are like that. Anyone else have any info on these?

Tom

Hi Tom,

I have seen two with the square hole and both were later serial #s. I also have two model 3's with the square hole. They do interchange with the square stem on later model 3's , but not the early ones.
I don't own the model 1's I saw so I don't know if they interchange but I bet they would .

Steve

Leonard,
I just noticed your watch serial # is just 9 away from mine! 743273
Steve

HELLO STEVEN,
THEY MUST BE BROTHERS SEPERATED AT BIRTH ! I WONDER IF THE WATCHES BETWEEN OURS EXIST ? A FEW MONTHS BACK ANOTHER DOCTORS WATCH CAME UP ON E-BAY WITH A BUY IT NOW CHEAP ENOUGH SO THAT IT DIDNT TAKE ME LONG TO CONFIRM PAYMENT. IT CAME IN A STERLING CASE. THE WATCH WAS CORRECT AND NEEDED NOTHING.
LEONARD