The Hampden book and I believe other references describe Hampden serial numbers starting at 58000. This is a very general statement in my opinion. I believe it would be more correct to say this is when New York ends. There are certainly plenty of Hampdens under 58000. They do seem to mostly be leftovers from before the name change however.

I have a little bit of an obsession with trying to map out the grey area between New York and Hampden watch co. It's only been a little under a year since I started, but it's been fun and interesting. Finding Hampdens with low serial numbers under 58,000 is quite a thrill.

This is the latest piece to roll through the door. Serial number 50136. It's a nicely preserved Woolworth movement. Unadjusted, 15 jewels and Gilt. It lives in a 4 oz coin recase. The only complaint I can come up with is the two screws on the keyguard, which will be righted when I get it apart for servicing.

It sports a single sunk Hampden Watch Co dial, which I 100% believe to be original. Inventory records indicate this run was in the motion department in 1874-75. This is good news when searching for a Hampden Finished watch. Also note the barrel bridge. The addition of "Pat. Pinion" is something I believe is strictly Hampden. It appears sporadically before 100,000, but consistently is not included on movements untill well past 100,000. My observations so far show it to be around 114,000. I believe this helps further prove this movement was finished much later, and after the companies name changed.

I also have two other observations from this run, one identical to mine, and one is a private label that didn't start selling watches untill later in 1875. Further proof.

The lowest 18s Hampden I've seen is 411xx, it's an M.J. & Co Railroad watch. Presumably a grade No. 40, and it had the Hampden newer style keyguard and click setup.

Anyways, It would be great to see any that fellow collectors would be willing to share! If anyone is interested in this topic I'll add a few more of mine to the thread.
Please add anything! Questions, comments, photos and watches, criticism, anything at all! Thanks for reading and have a good day!

Dial

I vote New York ! but it could be impeached... I thought the cut off was around 58,000 .

edit: that question has been asked a few times and I don't believe anyone knows for sure , I suspect they may have had some old inventory that was "put" together and sold

Hi Kevin! Thank you for the reply.

Sorry the title was a bit misleading and didn't come across with what I had intended. I just changed it. The movement is, in my opinion, definitely finished by Hampden.

The cutoff given by various resources is 58,000. It is a very good general number, however there are many movements under 58,000 that had been in various stages of completion when the company name changed. These are the ones I've been trying to seek out. There is no actual definite cutoff number. Movements had not been finished in sequential order, some sell quickly, some didn't, and it makes an interesting mix of movements!

There are E.W. Bond movements finished and sold by Hampden as low as 9000ish.


A year ago, I would have agreed with you that it is a New York, and someone tossed a Hampden dial on it sometime recently. After studying whatever is available, and recently getting a good look at some factory inventory information, I have definitely spotted runs of Hampden finished movements in the 40-58000 range.

Thats another reason why I wanted to start this thread, fishing for observations to check out!

quote:

I believe this ia a Hampden but all I have to go by is the Price Guide states that New York watches were signed Chester Woolworth and the Price Guide states the Hampdens were marked Woolworth. I have several under 58,000 which I also heard was the change over number. Several look to be New York Watch co. but have Hampden dials. They are all names grades. I do have one that is marked Hampden Springfield Mass. The serial number looks like 505466 but the "0" is not in line with the other numbers. Then I saw that the serial number is really 55,466 and the "0" is just the top of a peg and the bridge has the same peg on the other side of the bridge. So I am convinced it is 55,466. This is the only one I have under 58,000 that is not a named grade.

Here it is tell me what you think.

Harry

#55466 if you look at both sides of the bridge you can see the top of the peg but on the serial number side it looks like a smaller off centered "0" but it is the peg.

Signature

Harry,
Thank you for sharing that! What an interesting piece. This is the kind of thing I'm talking about!

"Hampden" is actually a grade name of New York Watch Co. In the line up it sits between the Theo E Studley and the Chester Woolworth.

A catalog listing describes it as:

"11 jewels, expansion balance, nickel barrel bridge"

I have only seen one other besides yours, about 400 serial numbers lower, and it does have the nickel barrel bridge.

The inventory list say that your movement, #55466 was in the jeweling Dept in 1875. That particular run is 80 movements.

The fact that it was in the jeweling Dept in 1875, the dial, and the barrel bridge being Gilt makes me think that it's very likely your dial is correct and it was finished up at a later date after the company name changed to Hampden. There's no way to be 100% sure, but the signs point that way. Also your serial number is stamped on the barrel bridge, where as the other "Hampden" grade I've seen was stamped on the plate. This proves the barrel bridge is correct even though it is Gilt, on yours.

Hampden (the company) did not have a movement in the normal lineup with that jeweling pattern as far as I can tell. This is only speculation but maybe it was finished up and sold as a "springfield" grade?? Just a thought.

Is your movement quick or slow train? 18,000 or 16,200?? I'm willing to bet 16,200bph.

That spot you mention by the serial number, if you look at my photo above it is also in the same location.

Thank you so much for sharing that! It seems highly unlikely I would ever get to see another from that run! What a wonderful watch!

Hi Rick,
I was unaware that Hampden was a grade of the New York Watch Co. I did not see it in the price guide so I always assumed it was a manufacturer that took over when the New York Watch Co. was taken over by Hampden. I did know that Hampden used up all the existing material left by the NYWCo.

I do not know if it is fast train or slow but if I had to guess I would guess slow. I have never taken it apart. I don't know how many jewels it has but unlike the 11j or higher jewel setup you are accustomed of seeing on a Hampden this one only has two jewels on the top plate. I would have to pull the dial to see if it were 9j or 11j. I don't recall seeing that setup on a Hampden or NYWCo. before. I see it often on Waltham.

Yes I was looking at yours but I only see one spot on yours where there are two spots on mine.

So if I am understanding you correctly are you saying my watch is a NYWCo. watch Hampden grade?

Rick I am glad I could help muddy the water. Most of my NYWCo. are actually New York Springfield Watch Co. watches but I do actually have a NYWCo. watch serial number 23,XXX.

Yes sir, I believe your watch was started off as a New York Watch Co "Hampden" grade, and there is a definite possibility it was finished and sold by The Hampden Watch Co.

It is 11 jewels. The upper and lower pivots of the escape and pallet are jeweled on these.

The barrel bridge should have been damaskeened nickel. Yours being Gilt, and stamped with it's serial number, is just fantastic! Like I said I think it's further proof it was leftovers finished up by Hampden Watch Co. at a later time

The jeweling pattern is interesting. I certainly have a tendency to collect movements like this. 11 jewels in pairs instead of all on the top plate. The Hampden Studley model two used pairs on the 4th and escape.. A handful of Elgins also. I've managed to find model 57 and 77 PSB Stemwinders like this too. Lastly, early Rockford had some interesting jewel patterns as well.

I'm a little confused about your last paragraph. Could you explain what you mean about NYWCo and New York Springfield, so that we are on the same page and I'm not confusing you?

There is a section in the price guide that shows the history of the NYWCo. I think it covers the beginning to the end which the end was Hamden. It shows the serial numbers associate with each name change. New York Springfield was the name right before Hampden took over and the New York Watch Co. only lasted a year or two before the New York Springfield took over. It is all in the price guide but that does not make it accurate but that is where I was getting my info from. Tomorrow I can get the book out and tell you exactly what it says.

Oh ok I understand what you ment now. You don't have to get it out, I just gave it a look. Thanks for explaining.

Here is another example:
This is a Woolworth. # 46151 with a Hampden Dial that again I believe to be 100% legitimate.

The inventory records show that this should be a "Billings" grade! I've never seen a short cock Billings. (I'm not saying there aren't any, I've just never seen one, and not for lack of searching!)

It says this run (46101-46200) was in the motion department 1874-75.

So it was still unfinished late in NYs existence, it was supposed to be a different grade. It has a Hampden dial. And I have one other observation from this run that is exactly identical including the dial. I'm calling this run "finished by Hampden".


What's the difference between Billings and Woolworth?? The finish. Both are 15 jewel, full plate, Gilt and come adjusted or unajusted. The Billings will have screwed jewel settings (and possibly other finer finished parts) and the Woolworth has faux jewel settings. (Pressed jewels made to look like real jewel settings)

Again I've never seen a short cock Billings.. but I can confirm this with the long cock models. Take a look at the two short cock Woolworths in this thread and you will see the faux jewel settings!

So I believe this is another run, or partial run, identified as being finished by the Hampden Watch Company.

Dial

Here are all my watches under 58,000 most are New York Watch Co.

The following have Hampden dials,
1) C. Woolworth Long Cock 33,262
2) Hampden (we already discussed) Short Cock 55,466
3) C. Woolworth Short Cock 43,140

The rest have NYWCo. on dial,
1) J. Hancock Short Cock 32,033
2) T. Studley Long Cock 15,861
3) C. Hayword Long Cock 23,785
4) J. Hancock Long Cock 21,209

Harry

43140. Woolworth in the motion department in 1873

32033. Hancock in motion Dept in 1872

Those are the only two in the inventory records.
Nice group!

The Woolworth # 43140 is interesting, do you have a picture of it??

Hi Rick,

I will post a picture later. Thanks for the info.

Harry

Its no wonder I have trouble getting an early hampden with Rick and Harry bidding , I did pickup a new york a few months ago , when I get back home I will post it.

HaHaHa, At least one of us gets them! Rick here it is and it is in very sad shape.

Harry

a

Thanks Harry! I'll be keeping an eye out for this run.


It's not as bad as you make it sound, a little love and that'll look like a million bucks!

Kevin, there is another fellow I know has snagged some of the ones I was after, haha so there is definitely some competition.

Here is another Hampden.

#57710. A "Perry" grade. Model 1
Private label.

It was in the motion Dept in 1875.
Hampden dial and damaskeen.

This is one of my favorites!

Dial

I missed my J.C.Perry # 52726. Note that mine has a New York Watch Co. dial.

front

Beautiful Harry! Adjusted Too! Nice Watch!

Your J.C. Perry in run 52721-52740 was in the "Stoning" Dept in 1875. I still have to figure out what some of these departments are, haha. I don't have a clue on Stoning.

I don't have any observations from your run of 40 movements, but within a few hundred serial numbers around yours I have 6 noted, all with New York dials except 1.

Here's mine, #57180

This one I grabbed because I think it's Hampden finished, it was in the jeweling department in 1875. It's a big run of 400 movements.

If you notice the adjusted marking on Harry's, and look at mine, I believe this helps indicate being finished later. Add the dial into the mix, and the late huge run of movements in the jeweling department, and I think it's a Hampden.

To be 100% certain, I will need more observations though.

This ones has scratches and it's obviously re-cased, but it's still a great movement in my opinion.

Dial

Both your nickel movements are beauty’s. Not that it matters just trying to understand mine you said it was a run of 40 but the serial numbers you quoted seems to me it would be a run of 20. I want to list it correctly on my tab.

Thanks! I wish I could find a suitable display case for the Loomis one. It's really stunning and I'm proud to have it. It deserves a nice home and not just stuck into some random case.

And yes your right, 20 movements.
My on the fly basic math skills let me down on that one, apologies!

No problem Rick. I just wanted to make sure I hd the correct info on the tag. Wow 20 is not a very large run. I am not familiar with that display case. I have seen a Hampden hinged display case and that is the one I would like to have but they are very scarce.

Is the list from RJ Ziebell of serial numbers taken at the close of new york watch co , or is this taken well before the close ? My pictures did not come out , I have a NY watch john hancock 47217 (?) I will have to clarify the serial , but I see what the question is about, if that was the unfinished list at the closing of NY watch co , then hampden could have or did finish them

https://pocketwatchdatabase.co...co-inventory-records