BWR 455 vs. 478

I have one of each grade and I must say I prefer the 455 because of it's much nicer damaskeening. The 478 looks almost Spartan in comparison. The movements look almost identical otherwise except for the regulators and the extra 2 escapement cap jewels on the 478. The balance wheel of the 478 is also slightly larger.

My question is whether the 478, which according to dates of manufacture seems to have replaced the 455, is really a better watch. Were the extra 2 jewels added to improve running or really just to compete with the other makers who were all offering 21j RR grade watches? I can't tell any difference in accuracy between the two at all and I prefer the traveling nut regulator on the 455 to the whip spring arrangement and pin hole screw on the 478.

As a side note I read somewhere that Waltham considered their 19j Riverside RR grade watch to be the best running RR watch they ever made. So, were the 21 and 23 jewel models everybody made really better or was it just marketing hype?

I can honestly admit that while I have restored many earlier BWR 19J Jeweled motor movements that are finished to the highest quality available from Elgin, I am not sure that I have worked on a grade 455.

That said, the product life of the 185,000 grade 478 movements (1922-1944) completely transcends that of the 64,000 grade 455 movements produced from 1917 to 1921. Clearly the 478 was a 21 Jewel "spec upgrade" meant for the most efficient and effective price point demand of the Railroad grades.

As for the Waltham question, a Waltham 16s movement fitted with a Jeweled "Safety [motor} Barrel" can be considered among the best running watches Waltham made. As the early 16s Walthams were not marked, the jeweled motor can be easily determined by looking at the capped jewels of the 19 and 21 jewel models. The 19 Jewel would have no caps on the pallet fork and escape wheel, the 21 jewel would only have caps for the escape wheel.

Yes the 478 was a "spec upgrade" but did it really increase the quality of the watch or was it purely for competitive reasons? I don't think the production numbers really come into play in answering my question.

I also don't think the jewel configurations of Waltham models answers why they themselves considered the 19j Riverside to be their best product. Do all these extra jewels really increase the quality of the watch or not? I think it's debatable.

I actually think that the benefit of anything past 17 jewels is also debatable. I have read that capping escape wheels and pallets offered little or no benefit and that jeweling the barrel definitely did not.

The 455 and 478 are different beasts and I am not sure that the 478 was intended to replace the 455. In the 45x grades you had the 455-19J, the 454-21J and the 453-23J with the 455=BWR, the 454=FT, and 453= Veritas. Around this time the market was fading away so the Father Time and Veritas did not show up again after the 454 and 453 were dropped. Elgin made the BWR name the high end of their grades and did not offer either the FT or Veritas again.

The next 16s 21j BWR grade after the 454 (16s 21j) would have been the 472, then the 478 came out later. The 45x grades were the last of the eye candy grades that Elgin made, after that it was the 472/478/571 look, very plain.

The 455 is a great 19j watch and right there with the 371/372 grades.

Don I see you were adding while I was typing so on the topic of jewels, I think a jeweled barrel made sense because these pivots had a large amount of force on them related to the mainspring but clearly the these pivots are not moving rapidly.

Elgin did offer two more 23j grades, the 494 and the 540 after the 453 but I think economics forced them to come to terms that to the watch buying public the extra jewels did not warrant the price difference because of any marginal increase in performance.

There was supposed to be a 23 version in the 57x line but it was never produced and Elgin only offered 2 more 19j versions after the 455, the 572 which was 19j a3p and the 527 which the 572 replaced also 19j a3p. As far as I know the 455 was the last 16s 19j a5p grade made.

Claude, I was just going by the fact that the 455 production ended in 1922 and the 478 started in 1923. It just seemed like a replacement took place and no more 19j RR grade Elgins were made. I'm talking about watches that were designated as BWR.

On the serial numbers

453 25,272,000 ended 9,000 made
454 25,038,000 ended 64,000 made
455 24,955,000 ended 64,000 made

472 25,595,001 started 21,000 made
478 25,678,001 started 184,500 made

the grade 472 beat the 478 out the door by a few.

Yes, but was the 472 designated as a B.W.Raymond? That's the only name I'm interested in.

Nevermind, I found a chart that says it was.

It still doesn't answer whether the 21j models were really better at their job than the 19j 455.

Yes the 472 was marked BWR and as I mentioned Elgin made the BWR after the 45x series its flashship brand name. You will see times when the BWR was considered to be the more expensive grade between the FT and BWR and other times the opposite.
Near the end Elgin basically only had the BWR as a named grade, even the 540,590,506, 494 etc were either 21 or 23 jewel variants but were named B W Raymond.

I doubt that you could show much difference between a 455 and 454 in time keeping ability but there was a point where the majority of the railroads just allowed 21 or higher jeweled watches so the 19j a5p fell by the wayside. That is why on the 527 and 572 they were only a3p, there was still a market for them but not much of a market and it did not require the extra effort to time the extra two positions, so a3p was fine.

Don, please reconsider the value Waltham added by jeweling their Safety barrel. The torques of the Motor Barrel vis-à-vis the going barrel is about 1/5th. This is greatly aided by jeweling the bore of the motor wheel.

You can read graphic discussion of this her at;
"Motor" and "Going" Mainspring Barrels . . .

I'm with you guys, the 19-jewel BWR Grade 455 is one of my favorite 16-size Elgin's. Here's another one I like a Grade 372.



19-Jewel BWR Grage 372 from my collection (movement #20211670, circa 1918)

Going by production dates it looks like the 455 replaced the 372 as the BWR model. I wonder what the differences are. In that picture of the 372, it looks like the barrel is jeweled. My 455 just has a screw there.

The 455 would have replaced the 372 and it was marked BWR. The 37x line had jeweled barrels even the 370 (metal type bushing) and both were a5p movement.

The 45x grades basically replace the 37x grades with the 17j a5p BWR being dropped, the 371 19j hunter being dropped, and the 373 21j FT hunter being dropped.

Basically the 37x grades were downsized 18s 3/4 plate models.