I've never seen one of these before but it's now mine! Did I stumble onto a historic find or just another Swiss copy? Any help on this one would be appreciated! I believe it's a 6s, SN 375074.

Hi John -

I saw this little Elgin listed today and was expecting someone to go for it. I don't think I'd ever seen this watch before and it looks to be a good quality grade, but I don't really collect the smaller sizes.

Congrats on your find and hope it turns out nicely for you!

Fred

Thanks Fred. There's nothing at Elgin Wayne's site on this or Cooksey's. I will look up the SN in my Elgin MC when I get home later this morning.

I'm hoping this is a multi-star watch as far as rarity goes. As you mentioned, it is a higher quality and may be 15J. Especially since "Adjusted" is on the movement.

I sure looks like it could be a very special Elgin to my eyes! Does it have the standard pie-shaped Elgin hairspring stud? A picture under the dial, to see the winding and setting parts might also help establish its authenticity as an Elgin.

Jerry,

I'll take pictures when I receive it. I have yet to see an old Swiss fake copied to this extent. I had to spend the money on this one just to find out what it really is.

The good things are:

1. The font of "Adjusted" and its location on the balance cock vs the plates.
2. Typical 6s dial.
3. The center wheel pivot hole cup.
4. Finger bridge design looks very similar to the old 16s convertibles.

The questionable things:

1. Period after Elgin on dial.
2. Large jewel cups as seen on some Swiss fakes.
3. Unknown hairspring stud design.

Can you find anything that might get my hopes up? I try so hard not to get burned but for $99.00, it was time to rock & roll the dice.

John,
You should have a 10s grd 23, 15j KW- 3,000 produced in 3 runs of 1,000.

George,

Thanks! This movement should be an interesting one and I don't think it's a grade 23.

I just looked in my Elgin MC and it lists my SN as a grade 23, 10s. However, Elgin Wayne's site lists this movement under grade 23 as 1002 made in 3 runs but as a Francis Rubie, gilt KW and 2nd model. This movement is not a keywind and I don't think it's gilt either. I can't even find a picture of it anywhere.

From all that I can find, all 10s Elgins were KW and this one is stem wind and possibly nickel vs gilt.

The word adjusted on the balance cock and no scale for the regulator looks odd to me. I wonder if this watch was a project by a watchmaker at Elgin or out in the field somewhere.

Tom,

I believe the scale is covered by a finger in the picture. What puzzles me is the serial number. It would appear that it is #74 in a run beginning with 375000 made circa 1874.

I'm not sure yet but this may also be one of the very first stem wind, stem set watches Elgin made. If, in fact, Elgin made this watch.

I noticed the lack of an index that Tom points out. I also wondered if the shaft of the regulator wasn't very long. What about the three finger bridge. Not for any particular reason, I have thought they were a later type of bridge.

Have you found anything else? It's an amazing puzzle.

Jessica

John, Could this have been a school watch? That is--a standard Elgin that was specifically modified by a student for his final project.

Tom

Jessica - The earliest Elgin finger bridge design that I'm aware of is the 16s, model 2 convertible.

Tom - If this is a 6s, the closest standard movement would be a model 1 or 2. However, both of these models have a spring barrel that sits closer to the balance cock.

The serial number puzzles me most. My Elgin MC lists this number as a grade 23, KW and Elgin Wayne's site doesn't have information on it.

Maybe Elgin allocated a block of SN's for new watch designs/prototypes and this was one of maybe 100 or less for testing. I will examine it closely to see if it was even cased.

John, your last comment is a good one. I do not see any case screws (or places for them) on this movement.

Jerry,

Thanks for pointing that out. I had totally overlooked that. If this movement is ever cased, it will have to be held into position from the dial side. Maybe an O-ring around the outer circumference of the dial would allow the bezel to hold the movement in place. It will be interesting if there's an indexing pin on the pillar plate.

Neat find John, i overlooked it as a common watch, did not pay alot of attention to it when i first saw it.As i keep looking at it it is very unusual, did you find out any more on this watch John?

Hi John,
It's watches like this, that make me want to learn so much more about watch "WORKS"
I have learned a lot, but not always enough to know something special or different when I see it.
Oh to have the brains for watches you guys have!!!

I really like the damaskeening on this one.
Notice that it's on the bridges and all over the place. The design is great too.

Make sure you let us know what you find out.

Great Find! Congratulations!

Hey John,
Been keeping my eye on this one, any new news?

You mentioned that Wayne's site didn't mention the grade 23 and it does, just nothing else but the date of 1875 and the quantity of 999.

It says originally marked as a G=23 but no examples have been seen in this range.

You have a real nice KEEPER with this one!

The quantity is unusual too, I have only seen them in totals of 1000 at the least.

I think you have an "Oldie but a Goodie"

Keep us posted please..........

Hi John!

Thanks for emailing me about this watch and this thread, sorry I haven't responded sooner.

I have seen one other watch from this run, but it was in a private collection and the person asked me not to publish information about it. Hence, no information on my website mentions this. (I hope this comment isn't a violation of that trust.)

I will see if I can dig up some more infomration.

As far as the quantity of "999" goes, that is an artifact of how I have recorded information. 375001 is marked as a grade 23 Frances Rubie with a note that the entire run of 1000 was allocated and the material catalogs say it is a Grade 23, but none had been seen. The other 999 are recorded as being completely unknown.

I would certainly be interested in any more info about this watch and/or this run. Dunno when I'll have time to be able to do anything with it though.

-wayne

Kevin, Sheila & Wayne,

I'm still waiting for it to arrive. I'm hoping some additional info may be written on the back of the dial. I will take a full set of pictures of all the parts plus front and rear shots of the plates.

The wait is killing me!

For what it is worth, here is an old thread that shows an 18-size movement from this run 18s Elgin
Scroll to the top when the link opens.

Jerry,

I remember that thread now; thanks. Did anyone ever conclude that this was made by Elgin? It doesn't look like an Elgin under the dial.

Looks like this could be another missing link. I would like to see some of the internal parts for comparison to other 18s Elgins.

Thanks again for finding this.

Wayne -

Serial #375240 ...



18 size, SW/LS, marked for Mermod Jaccard on dial/mvt

Fred

edit to change KW/KS to SW/LS

John, those are fairly standard Elgin under-dial parts for that era.

Fred,

Is there some reason why you labeled your watch as a KW/KS? I see the single case screw but there's no mainspring arbor square or cup on the mainspring bridge. Also, the under-dail picture shows a non-key set cannon pinion.

Jerry,

Thanks again for the education! I've worked on a lot of 18s Elgin's but Fred's is the first I've seen with that style vibrating arm. The slide (courtesy of Wayne's site) appears to be the same arm. This brings up another question; has anyone seen a model 10 18s before? Could Fred's watch be a model 10?

Well, I got the movement in the mail toady. I've torn it down and it's an Elgin and most likely a prototype. Here are some comparison pictures to begin with. I will do a full slide show during restoration later. There are some missing parts for the setting mechanism but they appear to be the same as on the movement that went into Rich Kuhn's wristwatch. Go figure.... Hey Rich, can I borrow a few parts from your wristwatch?

Thanks John for catching my mistake, must have been not thinking at the time but I've went back and made the change.

Fred

Every time I come back to this one, it gets better and better. Keep it up please. I can't wait for the information. I love new things.

Is it me or does the 7s in the ser# looke upside-down 2s? this is an older thread and I would love to see the updates on this unusual mvmnt. Are there other experimental Elgins out there?

Ya know, I forgot to come back in here and mention that this movement was listed as a grade 23, and if you look up grade 23 you will find that this watch was a CLASS 46 not a CLASS 47. It only has 1002 listed for grade 23, and I bet it was the two extra ones that yours is one of.

check it out.

375001 375001 1 FR 1875 23* 10s h3g2k 15j Adj f
last run of grade 23; 1002 of 2nd model in 10s;
# marked as "FR C=46" in the 1896 MC # Elgin serial number lists show 1000 serial numbers allocated, but only known examples are from the first run.

I thought this was VERY interesting.

your thoughts?


NOTE the SERIAL NUMBERS, yours is listed LAST on this page, and it's the only one with the notation of the Class 46.

Class 46 or 47?



See it here:

http://elginwatches.org/cgi-bin/elgin_sn?sn=g%3D23

I found this, and I think it tell all.

Boy, no wonder it was hard to figure out!

AND if you want to sell it, I'm buying.


http://elginwatches.org/technical/Frances_Rubie_puzzle.html

The neat thing that i noticed is that the barrel bridge is very close to the 16s mdl 5 shape but john says that its a 6s.