Hi all.

I saw this Hamilton movement on Ebay and it was so spectacular looking I just had to buy it (for $158). The seller advertised it as a 990, and it looks like it is based on my research on this site. However, it is unmarked, and the Gelson list shows the serial number of 342297 as part of a 1905-1906 run of 12-size Model 900s. Anyone have any thoughts about this apparent anomaly? Also, anyone have a correct DS Hamilton 4-footed dial they'd be willing to part with?

That is a "typo" and those serial numbers should be for 16 sz. 21J Grade "990's".

The first 12sz Grade 900's weren't produced until 1910. They are 19J bridge model watches with a checkerboard/fishscale/jeweled style of damaskeening. But be careful about buying a 900 movement by itself as they are hard to find a case that will fit them as they require a slightly larger than standard 12 sz case.

regards,
bb

Thanks Buster. Was it common for 990s of this era to be unmarked?

The 990 is much more collectible than it's counter part the 992. For every 990 you see you will see at least 50 992's. Yes it is very common for the 990's to be unmarked. I have two 990's. One is marked the other is unmarked. The 970 looks just like the 990 but it has the positive set winding stem. Very nice!

Harry

Thanks Harry! I just love the look of this movement. For fun I ran a search on Ebay for 990s, and I think only three or four complete watches came up.

BTW, Harry, what is a "positive set winding stem."

That is definitely a very nice 990. The Hamilton ledger pages and the finishing records and othe lists all show it as a 990. Gelson's date is OK 1905-06 so it looks like just a typo in Gelson.

That is what Hamilton used on their early pendant set size 16 movements. There is a tiny screw just below and off the side a little below the winding stem. You back off on the screw to pull the winding stem up to set the watch. Then you tighten the screw back down to positively lock the winding stem in place so that it can not accidentally be pulled up when you take it out of your pocket. You have to have the correct type of winding stem to use on of these type Hamilton's. Waltham used the same system on there model 1888.

I got lucky on my marked 990 I paid $170 for it and it has the correct DS dial AND it is in a Hamilton marked display case.

Harry

Thanks Robert and Harry. Harry, it sounds like you got a terrific deal on your marked 990. I already have a non-Hamilton high-pendant CWCC case that I think will be great for this movement. Just need a dial, but this time (for once) I went into the transaction knowing that Hamilton 4-post dials are not all that common but that they can be had from time to time.

Michael I have several DS 4 post dials. I have seen them go for big bucks. I do have some chip free hairline free dials but since I am not crazy to want to get rid of them I would take $85. However I do have a couple with hairlines I would let go for $45. Nice looking dials that should soak out pretty nicely. I also have a Swiss repo 4 footed Montgomery dial which is one of the nicer Swiss reproduction dials I've seen an it would be $55. Personally if I had the money I would go for the Hamilton dial. If you want to hold off and see if anyone else offers you a better deal that would make us both happy.

Here is a couple of pictures of my 970 with positive set.

Harry

Blurry but you get the picture.

Harry, I'd be happy to pay the $85 for an era-correct, problem-free DS Hamilton dial. Could you shoot me some pics to my email address? Look forward to hearing from you.

PS, that 970 is a great-looking movement! Were all 970s pendant-set?

Hi Michael,
Let's let the guy's that sell dials see this first. They love to sell their dials. So lets give them a chance. They my be a little cheaper and even if they are the same price they would love to sell you the dial. I would sell you one but I really only want to if they don't have one. Besides after putting on my opti-viser and magnifying them about five times I see only one of mine is perfect. The others have very fine hairlines as seen through magnification. I guess that is true though with a lot of dials that are eye clean when you magnify them you can see fine hairlines. I'll keep an eye on here. I know Rob, Phil, Jon and Larry all sell dials. Lets give them a chance first.

Harry

Yes all the 970's were pendant set and all the 990's were lever set to my knowledge.

Harry

Mike,

I picked up a 4 foot dial by buying an early 974 parts watch... I had a 990 that needed a set lever and a dial... the 974 came at a price less than buying a loose dial and gave me parts to fix several watches.

The 974 and 990 share the same patent dated plates and most of the parts cross over.

Sounds like a plan, Harry. I've been watching Larry's dial auctions, but currently he does not have any Hamilton four-footers. But I'd love to hear from anyone who would be willing to sell one. And thanks for the tip on the 974, Paul--that's a great idea! I'll check Ebay to see if an appropriate 974 is available.

Also, I recently wrote a post on a pristine Huguenin "Rail Way Time Keeper" dial that I picked up over Labor Day. If anyone has any interest in a partial trade I'd be all ears. Otherwise I'm happy to pay all cash. I'll wiat to see if anyone responds.

Grade: 990

•Movement Serial Number: 342297
•Grade: 990
•Model: 1
•To Finishing Dept: Oct 20, 1905
•Run Quantity: 300
•Total Production: 16,099
•Size: 16s
•Jewels: 21j
•Jewel Material: Ruby
•Jewel Setting: Gold Screw Settings
•Movement Configuration: Openface

•Movement Finish: Nickel
•Movement Setting: Lever
•Plate: 3/4 Plate
•Double Roller: Yes
•Regulator: Micrometer
•Adjusted: Yes
•Adjusted # of Positions: 5
•Adjusted to Temperature: Yes
•Adjusted to Isochronism: Yes
•Railroad Grade: Yes

Hi Michael,
Paul has given you some great advice. However if you don't want to wait I do have the really nice one for $85 I also have a really nice one that has just the beginning of a hairline at the 2 position for $65 and the ones I mention before with more hairlines at $45. Shipping would be $3 for any of them. I will send some pictures later.

Harry

Please keep in mind that the dial for the Grade 990 should be a double sunk dial as that's what all the advertising from the day mates them with. The lesser grades that weren't RRA/RRG such as the 974 etc. came with only the seconds sunk dials.

regards,
bb

That sounds fine, Harry. I'll look forward to seeing the photos.

And once I get the dial I'll post a photo of the complete watch in this post for review and comment

Michael this is what the dial should look like. I will email you the pictures as you requested.

Some points you may find of interest:

Production figures as shown on pages 51/52 of the Ehrhardt Hamilton Book (compiled in 1976 and revised in 1981) shows there were around 16,000 of the 990 all of them Lever-Set (CORRECTION OF MY PREVIOUS TYPING ERROR) produced between 1903 and 1919 when the model was phased out of production.

Compare that with the fact more than 540,000 of the 992 were produced. And speaking of rare watches, the Hunter version of the 990 the Grade 991 which also was Railroad Approved at the time of production, only about 2,500 of those were produced.

About Grade Markings, the reason for the lack of grade marking on Harry's watch is the fact grades were not required to be marked on watch movements entering Railroad Time Service until a 1906 change in the basic rules.

On the subject of dials, what Buster Beck posted above bears repeating and committing to memory:

"Please keep in mind that the dial for the Grade 990 should be a double sunk dial as that's what all the advertising from the day mates them with. The lesser grades that weren't RRA/RRG such as the 974 etc. came with only the seconds sunk dials."

Hamilton was very specific about their dials and as collectors we should do all we can to preserve correct examples. These watches will be around long after all of us are gone.

Don

Hi Guys, another very interesting discussion here. Could I get something clarified please?

The info posted above relating to the OP movement by Hubert shows 'lever set' while what Don has just posted it says 'all Pendant-set'.

I have a 990 just a bit earlier in number from the OP one and it is lever set also.
Thanks

To my knowledge all 990's are lever set I know both of mine are. All 970's are pendant set to the best of my knowledge as my 970 is positive pendant set. I don't know if all 970's are positive set but I suspect they are.

Harry

That is what I thought about the 990, Harry, since that was the info that I had previously. I'm guessing that Don just mis-typed the phrase but it's always good to check.

I agree Ralph.

Thanks for the very informative post, Don. I guess my non-marked watch must have been manufactured just prior to implementation of the 1906 change.

I've struck a deal with Harry for the DS dial that Lindell and Buster have also indicated in previous posts is right for the 990. I'll post the compete watch early next week once I've installed Harry's dial.

Thanks to you guys for catching my typing error. Of course all the Hamilton 990 were in fact Lever-Set, thanks much! That typing error is now corrected. And I have re-checked the rest of my post for accuracy.

Here is some additional Grade 990 information well worth reading.

Don

In that linked topic Lindell's Hamilton 990 movement number 374629 is marked:

Well, here it is. Harry, your $65 dial is superb--no flaws of any kind that I can see with or without a loupe. Hands are terrific, too. My thanks to everyone who commented on this post. This is the first Hamilton non-992 in my collection.

WOW it's a looker! Glad I could help you out Michael. Now I had better not see it on eBay. LOL I may just be too critical but there is a tiny short hairline at the 1 1/2 minute mark. Enjoy!

Thanks Harry! FYI, I have never listed a watch or anything watch-related on Ebay. I am a collector. That's not to say I never will list a watch if I have a duplicate or an unneeded part, or if financial conditions at some point require it. Hopefully not anytime soon