After a very rewarding weekend showing one of our brethren how to accomplish "hands on", the compleat restoration of (his) 1883 Waltham (which turns out to be a Can. RR Grade) I came home and started on a Grade 116, 15J 18s BWR (s/n5077835) and What DID I See . . . a REAL (not thrown away by some old Watchmaker) COMPLEAT Elgin 18s Motor with Stopworks!!!!
More to come! . . . .

David,
You truely did "find a needle in a hay stack."
Please show it to us when you finish it.
Every time I look at an older Waltham I wonder what is under the hood.
This is the card I have proped up by my computer.

Ed...are you saying that older model 1857's in the serial number ranges on your card might have a stop works "under the hood"? I understand the concept of the stop works, but not why they were apparently thrown out by watchmakers. Would you or Dave please explain to me.

Mary Ann,
David knows much more about this than I. Check out this thread.

https://ihc185.infopop.cc/eve/f...891099033#2891099033

Thanks, Ed. I read the other threads and it appears that, as the stop works was not deemed a critical part by some watchmakers, they just threw it out after servicing a watch. What a shame as the original manufacturer thought it was important enough to incorporate it into what appears to be higher grade watches. I'll be on the lookout for numbers within your serial number ranges.

Mary Ann, as the stopworks required some thought and study by the watchmaker to learn to "unload" and "reload", many of them simply did not care to spend the extra time and tossed out the parts costing the user the 30% or better reduction of "isochronism" errors that were allowed by the more expensive factory installed stopworks.

That is why I am so happy to discover one "survivor" to keep with my collection for that fact alone.

Thanks, Dave. I am glad that you found one. I guess there may be more lurking out there just waiting for us to find. Please post photos of the watch after you clean and reassemble it.

This is the final product after some cleaning . . .

The Bay State watch case must have spent its life doing an excellent job protecting this movement in a tannery, it was a real struggle to clean off the muck. It is worn through on the turned doming of the back cover, but still very functional

The movement was like working in the Elgin Factory, this is MINT!!! Notice the very nifty slide in dust covers. The advantages of these are they are cheaper, and they add a simple "labyrinth" type seal which is a little better.

All in all, this watch is a 116+ year old tribute to "excellence in design"

David,
A fantastic all origionl watch. The dial is realy nice looking.

It turned out great, Dave. The dial looks pristine, the case has beautiful engraving and the movement is very sharp. Wonderful find!

Dave, I worked on this watch long time ago, now you made me go and look...yes, the stopwork is missing and it wasn't me!
(BWR s.n. 5962142)

Here is one of my BWRs. I don't think it has the stopworks feature. It is a grade 27, I think. I always thought the serial number looked odd. Why do you suppose that is?

Steve G.

Steve

According to information I have yours should have the stop works.

Tom

Steve, it looks like the last 4 numbers are larger than the first 4 on your BWR. Is that how it actually looks in hand?

Regards! Mark

For Elgin's these are the movements that I show that should have stop works, this list is from 1908 back. I do not have the information from 1908 forward & I do not know when Elgin stop using these stop works.

Size 18 2-4th Model BWR & Father Time Hunting Lever Set Grades 27. 69. 70, 149, 164, 183

Size 18 Model 1-4 Culver Hunting Lever Set Grades 61, 62

Size 18 5th model BWR & Father Time Open Fave Pendant Set Grades 77, 116, 150, 166, 184

Size 18 7th model BWR & Father Time Open Face Lever Set Grades 180, 181, 252, 266, 273, 277

Size 16 1st Model Grade 72

Size 16 2nd Model Grade 91

Size 16 6th Model Grade 156

Size 16 7th Model Grade 162

Size 10 1st Model Francis Rubi

Tom

I agree Mark and I believe that is what Steve is referring to, right Steve...?

What ulterior motive would make some one change the last 4 digits of any watch's serial number unless they wanted to try to fool someone....

I don't think I could trust that # unless I saw it happening frequently in other watches....

Regards,
Jerry

Tom, I have a Father Time, grade 373, hunter, 16s and I have no idea whether it has one or not....according to your info, it probably does not....

Regards,
Jerry

I would have to do some looking to find examples but I think Elgin did stamp some of their watches like that.

Tom

I am going to edit my post of stop works, I need to add that the list is from 1908 back, I don't have the information forward.

Tom

We have brought to light some very interesting items with this thread. FIRST, Peter, that barrel you have still has the stopworks tooth and retainer, it is only missing the "maltese cross" part. These parts are valuable to some of us who have the Cross part but not the tooth and retainer. Maybe we can start restoring more of some of these nice watches if we compare notes like this.

Steve, Your BWR is actually a first of that series and is adjusted. I think the numbers on it are legitimate and when the parts were released for production, the stamp fonts that were used to record the series were slightly different for that 4 digit set.

Look to see if the same numbers are on the Balance Cock, Barrel Bridge, and (possibly) the balance wheel. Aslo, your Gr 27 was shown by Tom's listing to include some Stopworks motors.

Finally, I had no idea at all that some 16s Elgins were equipped with Stopworks, Now that is another quest . . . Thank You Tom.

Hi David

My info is from an old Elgin parts catalog I bought where they list each part, models, serial numbers, grades etc.

I looked up stop works & they have images of the parts both male & female & then the list I put above, so they do list 16s but I am only going on what they printed.

I thought with that list when searching ebay maybe we could find some unusual watches going by that list.

Tom

You people are terriffic! Thanks for the informed perspective on all of this. I don't monkey with these myself. I'll have to have my watch repairman take it apart and check it out. I've had this watch for years and never knew it was so interresting!

Steve G.

By the way, here is the dial.

This discussion got me into digging around my desk, I found this BWR that I have yet to clean, it has a broken hairspring.

It is a grade 77 BWR

Tom

Here is the mainspring barrel.

Tom

Well, I wound this thing up, and it stopped quite dead at the end. Now I can't wait to have my watchmaker look to see if it really has a stop work mechanism.

Steve G.

Here is another one I dug out but it is missing the stop works parts, Steve look at the serial number on the movement it is one stamped with a small 1st number & then larger remainder. I think I have noticed this on others, but you can see all the plate numbers match.

This one is a grade 70 BWR.

Tom

The missing parts

The number on the dial plate

Barrel bridge numbers