I know this topic has been on here time and time again, but I just cannot find my answer and need help.

I have a customer asking me if I could tell him the difference between "Railroad Grade" and "Railroad Approved" watches.

I have all kinds of answers rolling around, but none of them seem quite right to be telling someone who really might not know, and I don't want to steer him wrong.

Is there any topic that I can send him a link to that might help him, and me?

Thanks.

Regards,
Larry

The simplest answer that would apply is as follows;

RRG; Any watch made by manufacturers that met or exceeded railroad standards. Grades such as Ham 992, Vanguard, BWRaymond, etc,etc.

RRA; A list of watches each railroad company would approve if purchased by their employees. This list would change many times over the years.

Let me touch on one more definition;

RRStandards; A set of requirements to be accepted or approved by each railroad line outlined by a commission or board appointed by railroad companies.

For the most part, toward the start of the 1900 period a watch in railroad service had to meet the following requirements;

Be open faced size 18 or 16, minimum of 17 jewels, adjusted to at least 5 positions, keep time accurately to within a gain or loss of only 30 seconds a week, adjusted to temperature of 34 to 100 degrees Fahrenheit, have a double roller, steel escape wheel, lever-set, micro metric regulator, winding stem at 12 o'clock, grade name or number visible on back plate, use plain bold Arabic black numerals on a white dial, and have bold black hands.

As time passed rules and regulations would change and different railroad companies had slightly different wording but the meaning remained fairly the same. In 1893 some railroad companies were a bit vague about their regulations and some had none at all. There were over 500 different American railroad companies at that point in time and there were no nation wide rules, but after 1893 The General Railroad Timepiece Standards Commission was formed and started presenting new guidelines. 15 jewel watches were accepted by some railroad watch inspectors as late as early 1900.

regards,
bb

Hi Larry;

I have customers ask me that all the time. Debbie's explanation is correct, what I tell my customers is RR Approved meant that the company would ALLOW the watch to be carried on the railroad (ie approved)

I have a list of most APPROVED watches on my website, here it is:

RR Grade/Approved Pocketwatches

Thank you everyone.

This is very much appreciated.

Regards,
Larry

Great question, Larry.... & Great answers by all and is understandable by all....

Thanks, to each....

Regards,

Jerry

Well my customer was very impressed by the answers and was sure to email me and let me know to thank everyone for the great education on this topic.

Regards,
Larry

Around 1910 they started classifying railroads by the amount of revenue of $1 million, through the years this figure increased but in 1910-11 $1mil was a large dollar figure.

Considering that around 1910 there was a number of class 1 railroads that probably was in the ballpark of 100 if not more. The most stringent standards would be found on the class 1 railroads and for the most part I doubt that we have 5-20% of the watch standards documents from these railroads.

There were a lot of 17j adj3p what were railroad approved even up to 1920's but I think from the late 1890's the min positional adjustment was 3 positions and you could add the min jewel count as 17 with a steel escape wheel and patent regulator, tough to make a call on the setting since some pendant sets were allowed up too the early 1900's but not much after that.

You could make a good case that a "railroad grade" watch would be any watch from the 1890's up to the depression that was had a 17j count, 16 or 18s, had a steel escape wheel and patent regulator as a level of manufacturing quality, without regards to it being open face or or hunter.

Up to or by the stock market crash more than a couple of watch companies had gone by the wayside. With the exception of some deviations during the WW2 shortage one could make the case after the late 20's any watch that was manufacturered to the level of 19j adj5p steel escape wheel with a patent regulator without regards to being pendant or lever set could be considered railroad grade. By this time hunters or 18s watches were not an issue since they had gone the way of the dinosaur.

In the end to me railroad grade means a watch that was made at a quality level that was equal to or better than the railroad approved watches that were being produced in the same time frame.

quote:

In the end to me railroad grade means a watch that was made at a quality level that was equal to or better than the railroad approved watches that were being produced in the same time frame.

That'a a good way to look at it Claude, and very simple. I like it.

I am sure that watches like the Hamilton 922 or the Elgin Hubbard grades in the 12s were so well made and adjusted that they could have easily have kept RR time, without a doubt they would never have been RR approved but the level of quality was there.

It also would have been hard to argue that an Elgin grade 351 Lord Elgin would not have been as good as a BWR or Father Time 21j.

So on those grades that were not RR approved for some reason or the other such as setting type, size, etc but were made at a quality level that was equal or exceeded the RR approved versions is an easy way to judge or call them RR grade.

The same can be said about 12s watches made by Illinois, Claude.

They thought so highly of some of their 12s watches back in 1916, for example, they even priced the 21j 12s model 409 the exact same price as their Sangamo Special, according to parts books of the time.

The only two things going against the 409 was its size and being pendant set. Otherwise it ticked all the boxes for requiments to be a railroad APPROVED watch, including marked 5 adjustments. Even had a diamond end stone.

Regards! Mark