I was wondering if anyone would know the answer to some questions I have about the Howard series 11.

1. I have noticed while looking at photos of these movements some appear to have damaskeened designs while others do not. Is there a time frame that this was done & then not done in, the guide doesn not mention a demaskeened style.

2. Some have the arrow & the star engraving but some I notice do not, again is there a time frame for this, or is there any answer to either of my questions.

Do either of these items effect the value of the watch?

Thanks
Tom

Sorry about that. I took these images from the site. The one with the demasking was posted by David Abbe.

As to the missing arrow & star, I could not find an image of one but found where it was mentioned as being common.

Tom

My S/N 1385535 got the treatment for Damaskeening and as far as I know it was in one of the last 2 runs.

Thanks David, that was your photo I posted eariler. Here are two more, one with the damaskeening & no arrow, and another one without. I also noticed some have a click like yours but some have a bar click.

Sorry if I am asking too many questions, I like these watches & have been wondering about the difference yet they are all series 11.

Tom

Without demaskeening & arrow

I have been doing a little more research on these & so far from searching this site & ebay I have found 29 Series 11 & from those 29 only two had the demaskeening, David's & another one on ebay. These two are serial # 1385055 & 1385535. Does anyone have the run numbers for these watches? I would guess both of these examples are from the same run & I am curious if that was the only run that had the demaskeening.

It looks like it was common not to have the arrow & star, I have started to keep a list of the differences in these & so far out of 29 I have found about 1/2 do not have them. I would like to know more about the only two I have found with the demaskeening.

Hope I am not boring everyone with this.

Tom

Mine is kinda plain as well. But, I never met a Howard I didn't like.

Thanks Mark

I add your watch to my little list I am making, so far I am only finding that one run that had the demaskeened(sp) movements.

Tom

Thought I would post a photo of a new Howard Series 11 I just serviced. I have been trying to locate the run production numbers for the series 11. This watch & one with a close serial number that belongs to David Abbe are the only two I have been able to locate searching the web that have the demaskeening. Now I have only been able to find about 40 different ones on line but out of the 40 only these 2.

Welcome any information or comments.

Thanks
Tom

I have two Howard series 11 watches. Neither of them have the fancy damaskeening. One (Howard 1,317,691) has the star/arrow symbol, the other (Howard 1,182,013) doesn't.
I have a couple of theories about this. It seems to me that when the Howard company began casing watches in house with swing ring cases they probably felt that the surface embellishment on the movement was not necessary, since people were not likely to see the interior, but when they brought out the new railroad style cases with the screw back it became more likely that people would open the back and look inside. Maybe they decided to add the high polish at that time.
As far as the star/arrow symbol goes, they probably used this as a carry-over from the old E. Howard practice of using the dog/horse/stag symbols to denote grade quality. At some time they may have thought the use of this symbol was surpufluous since the series 11 was never upgraded or downgraded. It would always be a 21j 5 pos. watch. What's more, all of that information was already engraved on the movement. So the symbol was a redundant gesture. But seen as a hallmark of quality, the star/arrow symbol added to the appeal of the watch in some way, so the company reinstated its use again. Does that make sense?

Thanks for the reply, your idea sounds as good as any to me. Below are the Series 11 I have found on the web & if they have the demaskeening, what type of click & if they have the arrow & star. Last is the case, TO=tip out or swing ring (whatever it is called & BOC = Bar over Crown (or whatever this model of Howard cases is called)

SERIAL DEM CLICK ARROW & STAR CASE
83397 No Bar No
115205
131745 Rotary
1114175 5425110 TO
1181139 No Bar No 1012231 TO
1181162 No Bar No TO
1181758 No BOC 1587836
1182455 No Bar No 1511159 TO
1182993 No Bar No 1017303 TO
1183582 No Bar No
1183706 No Bar No
1183759 No Bar No 1013649 TO
1183955 No Bar No
1185031 No Bar No 1503163 TO
1185530 No Bar No 1008477 TO
1186000 Unknown Bar No BOC
1186119 No Bar No
1186149 Unknown Unknown No
1186390 No BOC 1587840
1186747 Unknown Unknown No
1186982 No Bar No
1188407 Unknown Rotary Unknown
1188589 No Rotary Yes 1533480 TO
1188671 No Rotary Yes BOC
1189191 No Rotary Yes BOC 1588423
1189393 Bar Yes BOC 1559070
1260640 No Rotary No
1260688 No Rotary No 1513093 TO
1263421 No Rotary No TO
1263421 No Rotary No TO
1283615 No Rotary No
1311369 1043809
1312793 No Rotary No 1051275 TO
1312874 No Rotary No
1312955 No Rotary No TO
1317001 TO
1317165 No Rotary Yes 1524855 TO
1317351 No Rotary Yes 1524999 TO
1318051 No Rotary Yes
1360399 No Rotary Yes
1362372 No Rotary Yes BOC 1569313
1362520 No Rotary Yes
1362677 No Rotary Yes BOC 1566581
1362787 Bar Yes BOC 1569284
1374718 No Rotary Yes 9679504
1378778 No Rotary Yes BOC 1580702
1385055 Yes Rotary Yes BOC
1385535 Yes Rotary Yes
1396135 No Bar Yes BOC 1591811

Tom

Good start, and I think mine is a BOC (bar over crown) case too.

David

If you get a chance to see if you have the run numbers for these, that one you haave & mine I am sure are from the same run & I was curious as to how many were in that run. If you happen to have the run numbers for the others I would be interested too.

Thanks
Tom

David

I was wondering if you ever got a chance to look at the run numbers on these Howard Series 11, yours & the one I own are the only two I can find with the pattern on the movement & I think they are from the same run.

Chris has mine right now, after I dropped it & broke it.

Thanks
Tom