Hello All,

This is my first post as an IHC185 member. I have a couple of questions about a South Bend "The Studebaker" 229 that I just purchased on Ebay. The movement number is 643620, which I believe dates the manufacture to ca. 1910.

At the time I bought the watch, I knew that the very nice NAWCO Security Railroad Model Pat 7250517 case was made significantly later than the movement. I do believe it possible that the owner may have re-cased the movement at some later time--my research has shown that this case was a popular one for the later mail order "Studebaker" model, so it might have made some sense to use this case after the original wore out. Also, I don't see any extraneous movement screw marks, so this may be the first movement that was ever put in this case. My research shows that the 229 typically came cased originally in a GF French-bow case, including any of the South-Bend signed Panama, Pilgrim or Pyramid cases.

So, my first question is this: From a collector's standpoint, am I better off replacing the NAWCO case with a period-correct one, or should I just leave the watch in the NAWCO case?

Second, I have some questions about the dial. I am providing a photo. I've scoured all of the South Bend literature I could get my hands on. It is clear to me that South Bend was offering Montgomery/Marginal Minute Dials prior to the manufacture of my watch. But I haven't been able to find an example of a dial identical to mine (of any era), which has the block-lettered "South Bend" dial signature and the "6" at the seconds register. I am aware of two 18-size 329s with earlier 5xx,xxx movement serial numbers that have similar but not identical dials. One is similar to mine, except that it has a scripted "South Bend" dial signature. The other has the block "South Bend" identical to mine, but it does not have the "6" in the seconds register. (BTW, the South Bend advertising literature denominates both styles--with and without the "6",--as "Montgomery," even though I've seen the dial sans the "6" described in other sources as "Marginal Minutes").

So, my second question is this: Has anyone ever seen this dial on a ca. 1910 229 movement? And if not, is it nonetheless likely that it is an original dial, given that South Bend was clearly offering the block-style dial signature at that time? Is it likely that anyone would have counterfeited a dial in a style that no existing (to my knowledge) South Bend literature showed?

And third, are these hands period-correct for this watch?

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

Welcome to the club !!

[A#1] Since you state from a "collector's" standpoint, then the case should be changed to a era correct 1910 case.

[A#2] I have not personally seen this dial in/on 1910 watches but I have seen it on slightly later era watches. I would opt for a script signature DSD of which the "swept-underscored" would be my first choice.

[A#3] I don't believe these hands go together for the South Bend 229 watch. I think it would be acceptable to keep the hour hand and look for a "pointer" minute hand. The second hand would not be a big consideration to me as long as the color was a match, as it appears acceptable.

regards,
bb

Hello Mike,

Welcome aboard.

I think the hour and seconds hand are correct, but think the sword (narrow-solid kite) style minute hand is more correct. I think this minute hand is actually a Hamilton style.

My best guess on the dial is that the script version would be correct. One post on this site suggests the block signature might have been for the lesser model 219 rather than be date driven.

South Bend marketed a case called the "bull dog" for these watches. I've only seen them in old ads... Unless I'm confused and the Bull Dog case is actually one of the models of the NAWCO case.

I like the NAWCO case. I have a 227 in the same case and consider it to be appropriate.

https://ihc185.infopop.cc/eve/f...021004411#2021004411

Happy Hunting, Paul

Thanks for the great insights, guys.

I feared that the minute hand was wrong. Actually, I've seen a few other South Bends of the same era posted on Ebay with the same minute hand, but all of my research indicates that it really should be the "pointer" minute hand as Buster suggests. I found a NOS set of the correct hands which I'll be adding.

On the dial, I'm not yet quite convinced. I found the thread that I think Paul was referring to:
https://ihc185.infopop.cc/eve/f...791025923#8791025923 There, Frank Kusamoto thought that the swept-underscored script dial was appropriate for the 227 and 229, and indicated that the block signature would be appropriate for the 219. But in the very next post, Keith Klinowitz showed my exact block-signed Monty on a 227, describing it as a "not so common dial on a 227." That, along with the fact that earlier 329s had the block script (albeit without the "6"), leads me to believe that my dial may be correct for this watch. But I'm always open to other thoughts. In any event, I'd love to find the "swept-underscored" dial that Buster suggests, and I'll keep my eye out for it. But I suspect I may be in for a long wait . . .

On the case, I think Paul's second observation was the right one--the "Bull Dog" case, according to my research, was a NAWCO case that was popular not only on 20's era South Bend movements, but also on BW Raymonds and 992s that were not factory cased. My inclination is to follow Buster's suggestion and find an era-correct South Bend case for the 229--it seem like the Panamas are out there occasionally, but not very often. And this, of course, leads to another dilemma: I have a BW Raymond AND a 992, both of which are in somewhat beat-up but original plain French Bow cases and would be era-correct for the NAWCO case. And either one would look FANTASTIC in the NAWCO case! But, should I change out what I'm pretty sure is an original case-movement combination? I am not a seller--just a collector--so my motivation would be display aesthetics and not profit. Still, if I ever did go to sell the re-cased watch, I would be facing an ethical problem. Oh my, what have you guys gotten me into . . .

Correction--I meant to say that the NAWCO cases were apparently advertised for use on 992s and Bunn Specials (not BW Raymonds, although I suppose that a BW Raymond movement buyer may have liked the case too!)

The minute hand on Mikes watch is called a "Double Swell Spade Hand".

I don't believe you will find a "Block" signature dial on the early 229's, but you would have found them on the 1918 last run of South Bend "The Studebaker" 229 watch's. Total production of "The Studebaker" Grade 229 was 6,000 watches. They made 2 runs in 1909, 2 runs in 1910, 1 run in 1912, and 1 run in 1918.

South Bend never marketed a case called the "Bulldog" for "The Studebaker" 229 watch and there are no ads showing that they did or were ever used. In later years starting in 1923 South Bend formed The Studebaker Watch Company and started a mail order business to market watches thru. One of the case manufacturers they used was the North American Watch Case Co. However they never used the "Bulldog" marked case from NAWCO.

Your 1910 watch is inappropriate for the NAWCO case it is now in.

regards,
bb

Guess I'll start my hunt for a correct script-dial . . .

Lindell,

Thank you for the correction on the Bull-Dog case... I was researching Burlington's last month and got my memory cells crossed over.

Paul

Thanks, Lindell, for the very informative post. I'd previously read your excellent South Bend piece and was hoping that you might chime in on this question. Your absolutely right that neither my Bunn Special nor my 992 will work in the NAWCO case in light of the lever positions. It's a bit odd to me, though, because I'm certain I've read that at least one 20's era NAWCO case was popular on those two watches.

Based on all of this terrific info. my plan is to first look for era-correct French Bow case, preferably a Panama, to house the 229. Then, I'll find a mid-20s 227 movement to use with the NAWCO case. And finally, I'll keep my eye out for an swing-script dial for the 229, and once found I'll swap out the current block dial to the 227.

If anyone knows where I might find the correct script dial for the 229, I'd love to hear from you. I actually saw one on Ebay today, and my heart jumped until I realized it was an 18s

Thanks again for everyone's nice welcome!

Mike

Folks, I hate to be a pest about this, but if I may I'd like to ask anther question. Should I be unable to find a South Bend dial for my 229 with the script and under-flourish signature, I've seen 229 ads from 1912 and 1913 that show a red-5-minutes dial with a script South Bend signature that do not have the under-flourish, and that have a somewhat embellished "B" (not referring to what I believe are the earlier script dials with a very embellished "T"). Would that dial be appropriate for my ca. 1910 movement? Also, I have seen a retailer's ad for a ca. 1910 229 that has a block-style Monty dial signature, but the block lettering seems to be smaller in height and wider than that on my signature. Would this be era-appropriate as well?

Lindell, I do understand that there is a possibility that my movement remained in inventory until at least 1912 or 1913, so I assume the former dial would be OK. But please correct me if I'm wrong. And I noted that your post said that my dial is a "large signature" block dial. So I wasn't sure if the small-block version might be correct.

Thanks again for all the great insights.

Mike

Very nice, Lindell--thank you! I'll stick with this dial for the 229, but look for a mid-teens South Bend case to house it in. If I find one, I'm sure I can find a 20's era 227 movement and dial for the NAWCO case.

Mike

Michael-

I would agree on Lindell's assessment on the 229. The block letter dials do show up on the 229s some. While the more desirable fancy script is usually wanted, I would see the block letter dial as original too. the fancy script dial is going to be hard to find and expensive if you ever wanted one, so I would leave it alone.

On the Nawco case, I would suggest either a later 227 or a standard 8 Adjustment Studebaker. On the 229, You may want to locate a french bow South Bend marked case. This would be the most desirable to most collectors. If you cannot find one of these, then a french bow case of another make would be acceptable also. South Bend was very big on french bow cases. Most I find without from the teens has either been recased or the bow replaced.

Jared

Thanks much, Jared. I'll keep my eye out for a South Bend french bow case for the 229--it may take awhile, but I'm pretty I can find one eventually. And I'm pretty sure I can find a later 227 movement and dial for the NAWCO case.

Thank you for your kind interest in my issue!

Regards,

Mike

Mike,

Having several South Bend 16s watches myself, I got to looking through the Catalogs and Jeweler price sheets on the South Bend research link. I'm pretty comfortable with my Mantauck 20yr cases and Crescent cases most of them arrived in, as most were sold as lose movements and cased at the point of purchase.

From what I can tell, your 1910 watch might actually predate the "named" cases. The 1916 price sheet shows the Panama is a 20yr case, the Pilgram 25yr and the Pyramid permanent. The 1909 price sheet states the 229 is sold as a lose movement, or as a cased watch in a permanent or 25yr case. It would not have been factory cased in anything less than a 25yr case... So, somewhere between 1909 and 1916, they gave names to their case grades.

If I didn't read far enough, properly connect the dots or adopted one too many assumptions... ya won't hurt my feelings setting me straight.

R/Paul

Hi Paul,

Take a look at the 1909 "South Bend Catalog A" listing for "South Bend Watches and Cases," at P. 29. http://library.ihc185.com/SB/1909/2Image1.jpg This seems to indicate that South Bend was selling complete watches with South Bend cases as early as 1909, although I have no idea if they were denominated as "Pyramid," "Pilgrim" or "Panama" that early on. The earliest material I've seen referencing those case models is the 1914 catalog--see http://library.ihc185.com/SB/1914/p40.jpg But I certainly could be missing something.

Paul, looking at the 1909 price list that you referenced (at http://library.ihc185.com/SB/1909/2Image16.jpg ) this is very interesting. It shows several variants of "South Bend Compete Watches" with different "Code Words" designations for each watch/case combination. For instance, for 16S 21 Jewel Adjusted Open Face watches in a solid gold case, the price list shows "code words "Doddart," "Doddy," and "Dodge." For the same configuration in a "Jointed [apparently gold filled] Case," it lists "Code Words" as "Doctor" "Dogma" and "Dohl." And for Screw Back and Bezel cases, it shows "Code Words" "Docile" "Dockage" "Dogged" and "Doge." Do you have any idea what these designations mean?

Also, the 1909 price list for movements does show the 18 size 329, but it does not yet show show the 16 size 229. Wonder why, given that the 229 movement apparently was first manufactured that year . . . ?

You've piqued my curiosity, Paul. Thanks a lot, Pal, for making my hunt for a correct case for my 229 even harder!

Regards,

Mike

Mike,

Glad I could be of service. Gotta admit, you have a lot more options now.

There are a couple South Bend heavies in the club. I'm not sure who they are or if they are still active.

Buster and Lindell might be able to help answer your code word question. It's a new one on me too.

R/Paul

On page bottom 58/59 of the same catalogue it states:

"In ordering by wire use code word shown under price of case desired"

South Bend Catalogues & Literature

I missed that, Lorne. Maybe these designations were nothing more than an ordering code? Gotta like the "ordering by wire" option, though! Guess that was the early 20th Century version of amazon.com . . .

So, I think what you just said is that any case from any manufacturer anywhere near 1910 is an acceptable case for Mike's watch. Just asking... cause my little pea brain is having a hard time processing this "anything" goes discussion as compared to all the hard ball "proper" case responses we normally get.

Perfect. And thank you for putting that all in three paragraphs in a single post.

That cohesive and comprehensive, one stop shopping synopsis of the discussion is priceless to me.

I also appreciate the additional data point regarding factory cased watches. I have a couple watches that should be factory cased that do not have movement maker signatures in them.

I have to revisit them. I down graded them because I thought the cases must have been swapped.

Now I know better.

Here's the dial and case with what I think (hope) is a complete set of correct hands . . .

And here's the back of the case:

Michael,

If it were mine I would go with the 1920s theory Lindell suggested, print this topic to retain with the watch and keep it in my collection. By the way, sometimes that dust cover is missing, you have the entire case.

And yes, those hands look right the way they should be.

Don

Thanks Don. The post is now printed, folded and put inside my watch folder. I'm curious to hear what others say about this. But my inclination is to follow your advice and keep this combination together, at least for now. But if I ever come across a mint-condition teens-era hinged South Bend case--like the kind shown in the 1914 catalog--I may be tempted to grab it.

BTW, the movement screws line up perfectly, although it appears to me that a wider set of screws may have been used at one time, because the current screws don't entirely fill the marks on the movement. Could there be another reason for that?

When movements are taken in and out of a case, sometimes those areas will spread when the screw is re-tightened into place.

Regard! Mark

Thanks Mark!