Elgin "Father Time" 1918, 21 jewel,16size. Grade 454.
Hi to all from here in the UK.
I am attempting to remove the Balance wheel and hairspring from the body holding it as I suspect I have a broken jewel or balance staff. I have undone the screw holding the triangular hairspring stud and this now moves feely, however the balance wheel still will not come free. Is there something else I need to undo or is a little more force required?.
Thanks to all.
Steve.

Stephen,

The pivot has probably become stuck in old oil in the jewel. Do not attempt to use any force to remove it or the pivot will break. If you have an ultrasonic cleaner, that should break up the old oil without any damage. If not, soak it in a degreasing solution. The parts should separate on their own.

Robert: I like the answer you posted.
One thing I would suggest is to put the balance/ with cock back in the watch. Because the vibrations could snap the pivot also.

Eugene,

I have done this in the past without damage, but I see your point. The ultrasonic produces microscopic bubbles that collapse, actually boiling in a cavitation atmosphere. I don't think there could be vibration damage, but I defer to any experts who might be able to clarify. I may have to change my own process if there is a chance of breaking the pivot in the ultrasonic under these conditions.

Your could try a "soak" in Lighter fluid for a short time, then see if it comes out. Also, I have sometimes removed the cap jewel and carefully pressed out the pivot from the top with a sewing needle. . . .VERY CAREFULLY!!

My sincere thanks to one and all for taking the time to reply to my problem which I have now satisfactorily resolved.
I actually got some very fine tweezers between the body and the top of the balance wheel (right inside) and applied a little up and down motion and hey presto!.
Upon inspection, the jewel is fine but what was causing it to become jammed was the balance staff pivot end was bent not allowing it to pass through the jewel except with a little extra help. All I have to do now is tweek the end back straight again and should be up and running.
This is a brilliant site for people such as myself who are beginning to learn the art of watch repair.
I bought the watch for £115 last week as non-running, and it has a double sunk Montgomery Elgin dial which is nice. so with a bit of luck all should be back working again.
kind regards, Steve.

Goog luck with straightening the pivot. I've done a few successfully but broke a few also.

Stephen,

The pivot on American watches is very hard and easily snapped. I have used all kinds of recommended methods for straightening and the one that works best...for me anyhow...is the simplest. There is a special tweezer made for this job. it is about 3/4" wide and has flats on the top and bottom of the gripping edge. You clamp your balance assembly securely in a lathe (bent pivot out). You then turn the headstock pulley by hand until you have the high and low points of the bent pivot where you can grasp them comfortably with the tweezers. It is best to pin the headstock in place. You grasp the pivot with the tweezers at that high and low spot and pull as horizontal as you can maintaining a tight grasp. The tweezers will slide along the pivot straightening it as it goes. You may have to do this a couple of times and you might not get it perfect, but usable. Disclaimer: This has worked well for ME. It isn't the only way, nor may it be the best way, but it is the best and easiest way I have found for me.

Alas, the pivot end broke and so I start my search for a new pivot and an understanding of how to fit them unless I can buy one complete.
Thanks to everyone for your help and support.
Steve.

Stephen,

You will need a new balance staff and you need to know the jewel hole size in order to get the correct pivot size on the new balance staff. You will also need some specialized tools to do this job right. You may want to consider having someone do this for you if you don't have the tools and are not familiar with the procedure. There is more to it than meets the eye. Please also let us know how you tried to straighten the staff and how it broke. If you want to send the balance across the pond I can replace the staff for you.

Hi Roger and thank you for your offer of replacing the balance staff which I gladly accept.
As you can probably tell, I am a novice with past toolmaking experience but have no specialised tools. At the moment I rebuild and refurbish pin pallet pocket watches but decided to take the next step and purchase a non-runner but alas I have failed. I tried to bend the pin using a high powered magnifying glass and tweezers being extremely careful as I appreciate just how easy it is to break...and it did!.
Your help would be much appreciated Roger and if you could e-mail me that would be much appreciated as well.
My e-mail address is:
steveanddiana@btinternet.com
Kind regards. Steve.

Steve,

email has been sent.

Roger

Hello to all you wonderful people.
I would like to extend my heartfelt thanks to Roger Nolfe, IHC member 1087 for repairing my Elgin "Father time". I sent the entire movement to him from here in the UK to his residence in Ticonderoga with a broken balance staff as I do not possess the skills to repair it..
This gentleman stripped the watch, bought a new balance staff, fitted and poised it and continued to clean, service and inspect the rest of it.......and only charged me $30.00 .... It is now in my pocket keeping superb time.
I have been to the USA twice now and I can honestly say I was bowled over by the friendliness
of it's people and the generosity as well.
Roger is a shining example of everything that is good in our society today. THANK YOU ROGER !!.

BRAVO, Roger!!!

Thank you for the kind words Stephen. It was a pleasure to help you save this beautiful timepiece.

Roger

Thank you Roger for your generosity and consideration shown Stephen....

It is so nice to see such camaradiere among our members and to be able to help each other like you did....

HIP, HIP, HORRAY for Roger....

Regards,

Jerry

Top-shelf gesture, Roger.

How about a picture or two, Stephen?

Okey dokey.......as soon as I get a chance.

I was informed by Roger that my 992B had the same issue, bent pivot, I originally thought it was overbanking and he did the same procedure that he mentioned. After cleaning, and a new crystal and mainspring replacement what I got back was a watch that will keep RR time for weeks and from the timing machine printouts runs like a top in all 6 positions.

Here are some picture of the "Father Time".............

another one

and another one..

last one......

Very nice!!!