I have the opportunity to purchase a Waltham Canadian Pacific 18s, mdl 1883,17J silveroid PW. The mvt is A.T.& Co. #12003xx, cr. 1903 and it appears to be from a run of 500.
I am concerned about the the authenticity of the dial, and the case.
The dial is marked Waltham is script, roman numeral ouside markers, 24 hr arabic inside.

The case is a silver swing out. Should a watch like this have a Canadian made case?

Sorry no pics!
Thanks,
Ed

This is a Waltham model 1883 production quantity report that might be useful. With no pictures helping on the watch is harder. It probably should have a Gold Filled C.W.W.C.Co case, and it MUST have a 24 Hour Dial, usually all arabic

I am sure someone with a greater deal of knowledge on this will chime in but for the mean time. From what I know the Canadian Pacific Railway would have the 24 hour dial, I think it should be a double sunk dial. I think it should be adjusted to positions, gold jewel settings, gold balance screws & Patent regulator.

As far as the case goes, I really wouldn't know.

Hope this helps some.
Tom

My CPR watch is a model 1892, but the etched CPR "Beaver" logo should be the same on the watch you are considering.

The 24 Hr dial on my CPR

The mvt is authentic with the beaver logo. I'm just not sure about the case and dial.

I will be looking at this watch again in 2 weeks, I will have my camera along this time.

Thanks for all the fast replies.

Ed

I was just looking at Larry Buchan's story about a trip on the canadian railways and found this pic.

Other than the name it is a match for the one I am talking about.

Ed

Now for the case!

Edward:

The Dial with the 24 hour markings would be correct for railroaders working west of Fort William Ontario a 12 hour dial would be used in the East. A Silverode or any other nickel case would be suitable for this watch.

Buchaneer

I finally had the opportunity to view this watch again. The dial has some hairlines as you can see. The case is a AWCco. sterling swing out with two not so very nice dings on the side. Would anyone know if the case is repairable?
The mvt is OK with some minute scratches.
The crystal has many small scratches which makes the dial appear clowdy.
Excuse the pics, I was in an awkard position with many people around.

Mvt.

Case and dings!

ED WATCH OUT!! THIS IS NOT A CPR WATCH. THE BARREL COVER DAMASKEENING IS NOT THE SAME PATTERN AS THE MOVEMENT PLATE BECAUSE IT WAS NOT MADE FOR THIS MOVEMENT. THE WALTHAM PRODUCTION NUMBER SERIAL SERIES HAS NO MENTION OF A CPR WATCH EITHER. IN THE 12,003 XXX THERE WERE
APPLETON TRACY LEVER SET 17J 12002301 - 3500
APPLETON TRACY PEND. SET 17J 12003500 - 4000

WITH A MIS-MATCHING DAMASKEENED BARREL COVER ON A PLAIN 17 JEWEL APPLETON TRACY & CO. PENDANT SETTING MOVEMENT. IT IS A "FRANKENWATCH"!

IT HAS LITTLE OR NO VALUE EXCEPTING THE CPR BARREL COVER IF THE REST OF THE ORIGINAL MOVEMENT COULD EVER BE FOUND.

OFFER THEM $50.00 IF YOU WANT A FRANKENWATCH.

David,
Thank you very much for the call and the reply to my questions. Somewhere else on IHC 185 I read someone's remarks about this being done before, but it never crossed my mind.
I tried to call and thank you for taking the time and effort to contact me, I got a recording. I thought I would do so this way and let everyone on IHC 185 know what a great guy you are, (like they don't already know.)
This site is a god sent for newbe's and you and others are the reason.
Thanks again and have a very nice day.

Ed Kitner

I was just looking at the pic of the mvt. Yips, the difference in the damaskeening jumped right out at me now that you brought it to my attention.
I have a lot to learn, luckely not the hard way on this one thanks to you.

Ed

That one helped us all, believe me, it is sad indeed that someone did that to "enhance" that watch. About as dumb as trying to rob a bank.

quote:

THE BARREL COVER DAMASKEENING IS NOT THE SAME PATTERN AS THE MOVEMENT PLATE BECAUSE IT WAS NOT MADE FOR THIS MOVEMENT

I may be wrong but it's my understanding that the barrel covers were always a different pattern on these watches the numbers should match though.
George.

George, Your point certainly has merit for the cause of the "Beaver" etching having to be on the Barrel cover, but there are two other disqualifications for this item;

First the serial number set of this movement in question is for an Appleton Tracy Pendant Set watch. ALL 1020 Waltham CPR movements made on the Model 1883 platform are Lever Setting. (Ed Kitner's dial picture above rings this alarm quite plainly. There is no lever.)

Second the serial number of this movement is 12003xxx. The serial sets for the 1020 movements of 1883 platform CPR's actually built are;
7903201 - 7903220
11072501 - 11073000
12674001 - 12674500

here is some documentation about whether CPR watches had to be lever set, the watch card from 1902 clearly shows that pendant set watches were approved at that time
-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -
PAGE 53 CANADIAN PACIFIC RAILWAY FORM 94
TIME SERVICE DEPT.
EMPLOYEES WATCH RATING RECORD
Mr. AJ Cameron Occupation C. (Conductor)
--- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --.
Maker of Movt. Walt. No. 5742981

Grade CPR

Case O.F Nick

Date lost Cleaned September 19, 1902

Name and Address of Cleaner D.R.D. (in script)

D.R DINGWALL LTD. Inspector
Address Winnipeg

here is the dial off of my pendant set Waltham 1883 CPR

That is a beauty. Your marked s/n5742981 is listed in Waltham factory records as a 15 Jewel model 83 Pendant set Open Faced Grade 35 Premuim Grade movement, meaning it would at the time of manufacture be OK for RR use, although there is no mention of CPR in that 1,000 Pc series.

I have no doubt that yours is correct, even including the 17 Jewel vis-a-vis the 15 Jewels logged by the watch Co. I also notice your watch has matching damaskeening all the way around including the Barrel cover.

Your watch by not being mentioned as CPR in the Waltham records actually predates by 6 years (1891 vs 1897) the earliest production CPR recorded by the compendia of factory described model 83 listings which also do not mention any pendant setting CPR models at all. You certainly have a rare duck!

Also this must have been a very early order as the James J. Hill Gang was hardly even started with the main push to build the CPR at the time this was made;

"On October 21, 1880, a new syndicate, unrelated to Hugh Allan's, signed a contract with the Macdonald government. They agreed to build the railway in exchange for $25,000,000 (approximately $625,000,000 in modern Canadian dollars) in credit from the Canadian government and a grant of 25,000,000 acres (100,000 km²) of land. The government transferred to the new company those sections of the railway it had constructed under government ownership. The government also defrayed surveying costs and exempted the railway from property taxes for 20 years. The Montreal-based syndicate officially comprised five men: George Stephen, James J. Hill, Duncan McIntyre, Richard B. Angus, and John Stewart Kennedy. Donald A. Smith and Norman Kittson were unofficial silent partners with a significant financial interest. On February 15, 1881, legislation confirming the contract received royal assent, and the Canadian Pacific Railway Company was formally incorporated the next day."

James J. Hill (himself a Canadian-born immigrant to the USA) used U.S.A., German and British funding (Kennedy, Angus, and Kittson) to leverage his participation in this CPR adventure along with (later) monies from Mr. Morgan to (mainly) slow the completion of the CPR rails until his own (Great Northern) American based RR could grasp full control of the Pacific Northwest. Meaning in short, as of 1891, CPR was just getting off the ground. The history of this (which I just finished reading) is very exciting. The "Hill Gang" all listed above were the most dynamic railroaders in the world!

That is sure one sweet looking watch Larry!

David,
Interesting piece of Canadian railroad history.

Ed, CPR RR grades are just one of Larry's passions and fortunately we have his knowledge to help with these things such as the earlier Pendant setting model he has. With respect and deference to Larry's point, the Barrel plate Serial number should be verified to the movement serial number to confirm what this watch really is. The picture below is an example of what kind of number may be somewhere under the Barrel cover that should match the movement serial number. It may not be in that exact location, but there must be a full or partial matching number for the watch to be "as claimed".

I believe I found another CPR "frankenwatch."
This one is on a NAWCC member's site.
The # doesn't fall within any of the CPR runs either.

Here is one I sold in October of 2005 in our IHC Auctions...

CLICK FOR: WALTHAM CANADIAN PACIFIC RAILWAY, MATCHING PLATE NUMBERS!

Pendant-Set, the damaskeening differs but the numbers match.


Numbers matching on this Canadian Pacific Railway...

Lindell,
How could the damaskeening differ? I am new but I have not seen it on any other type of watch but the CPR's.
Was the manufacturing process different for the CPR's?

Lindell and all, I guess this is where I must bow out of the discussion, as the nearest to Lindell's is a 20 piece run I mentioned before at 7903201 - 220, and the s/n on Lindell's is for (according to AWWCo.) a 17 Jewel Appleton Tracy & Co. watchthat is in the same run of 800 pieces, I can easily surmise that more CPR's could have filtered out of that run, but the CPR's listed are lever setting, and this (again) is a Pendant setting model. This all leaves me a bit "flummoxed" as I have absolutely no doubt that on one side CPR could have used Pendant setting watches, and on the other side, given the atmosphere in Massachusetts at that time, there could have been many parts leaking out of the factory to "make" whatever you wanted out of production watches past and present.