i would like an image of the 08xxx case marking....

I have seen others, but can't recall instantly if they have a patent date...

There is an 'order' or progression to these cases, but we will find gaps, as wadsworth used the numbers in all their products (wristwatch cases, etc).....

Mike,
Thanks for describing the "case" numbering scheme that Wadsworth used, you have explained it well.

Robert

Thanks to Lindell, Terry, Mike and Robert for the replies. I'll try to get an image posted of 083343 with the 5-22-26 patent date real soon. However I'm somewhat new to computers, digital cameras and sending photos. I will tell you this case has everything centered in the original Wadsworth brushed finish inside with 083343 on the bottom line (all very clear as new), so nothing was altered or removed in front of 083343 serial number. Just hang on while I struggle a little to get an image posted. Later!
Larry

Case Number 08(?)3343 or (?)088843...

We must realize how easy it could have been to make a mistake like this at the case company. The frame and bezel reflect the last four digits, in this instance "3343" correctly. So we have no reason to question that. Perhaps when the worker loaded the type to stamp inside the case-back the correct number may well have been 0833343 and he simply left out one of the threes! After all, that's a mistake we all have made and it may be a perfectly logical explanation. If that theory is correct the case should probably house a 1935-36 area movement.

However, when Larry explained to me that the impressions are all in a straight line we came up with an alternative theory. Perhaps it should have originally been H083343 which would be more like somewhere in the late 1930s as the production time-frame but the numbers do not fit there either.

We have many questions, but very few definitive answers.

Welome aboard Larry i think you will enjoy this very Much..Looking foward to Seeing some of your watches...Post a picture of that 2 -tone case 992b sometime..

Samie

now this one is a model 8

I captured this image...

this is also a model 8

and another captured image...

I also have some model 2 examples listed in database... some with patent date, some without..

most are on late 30's 992e...

one example without patent date had two sets of case screw marks... one from a 992B......

Terry,
Really appreciate your very clear and informative photos. Now give us a hint when your book will be out!

Robert

Famous "Bar-over-Crown" patent of 5-22-26, for Hamilton Model #2 "Wadsworth" case.

quote:

The #2's earliest production starts in the 0240,000 serial number range and go up to 999,000, they then go to a H prefix, work through that and then go to a J prefix.

I'm a bit confused, though that's not uncommon.

The picture of the case below appears to have a serial number of 008947. Are there perhaps some digits missing or otherwise not visible?

Or does 008947 somehow fall after 0240000?

Or was the statement made above saying that the 992Bs started with Model 2 cases numbering in 0240000 range?

I guess what I'm trying to determine is whether it is known at what serial number range the Model 2 cases began being used for 992Bs, and if so what the earliest known example might be.

Thanks,

Tref

Little more to it than that...........

(darn those ebay hosted images..... )

To begin, the reference was to the introduction of the model 2 case in 1926, so nothing to do with the 992B movements...... The H prefix began in the late 30's and crossed over from the 992 to the 992B production......
somewhere around H4xxxxx the exact point has not been determined... and confusing the issue is the model 10 case shared the same serial number ranges...... and most likely the model 8 cases....

this is the earliest BOXED example I have recorded.. but it is a LABEL ONLY.. THE WATCH IS STILL 'OUT THERE'.....

c15143 h459914 2 1-18-03 BOX LABEL ONLY label states HG DIAL, 10KGF

there are earlier examples recorded, but they cannot be documented by box label.

Now.......

near the end of the H prefixes, the patent date disappears.......

I have seen examples that have no patent date, and a 'weird' case number..... after seeing numerous examples and documenting them, a pattern seemed to develop....

these cases seem to be an interim case between the end of the H prefix and the J prefix...

the lack of the patent date is the key......

now you know what it took me years to find out... I don't expect you to fully understand until you look at many watches.......

plus, this image will help.........

Robert...

i seemed to have overlooked the case you posted... have more info?


I have some 'ideas'..........

and for Tref... and even weirder case marking

Strangely enough Terry I think I do understand. Let's see...

If there is no patent date AND no letter prefix then the serial number can be very low (with one or more zeroes padding the left end), yet still be from a case that came much later in the lifespan of the Model 2 (assuming the case fell between the H and J prefixed ranges). Close?

If so, here's another question. The case I pictured reportedly held a 992 in its most recent lifetime. I have no idea if it also held a 992B at some point because I have not held it in my hand nor have I seen the case rim. But if it turned out that it held a 992 and only a 992, how would that play into the "betwixt the H and J range" scenario?

I have a question about that label you posted, but it would take us off topic and so I'm not going to go there But with your permission I'll copy it and paste it into another topic where it can be addressed properly.

Thank you for helping me along!

Tref, the case you are inquiring about dates to 1948 and is one of the ones in between the H and J prefixes, should without a doubt be for a 992B or 950B from 1948, should have one set of case screw marks (for a B movement ) and all 3 components should have matching serial numbers.

If it held a older 992 when you saw it, and NOT a "B" then it has been switched at some point in time from the original "B" movement it held when new. It is that simple, but as Terry said, only after you have handled and RECORDED years and thousands of watches. We do not want to "explain" the exact year by year listing of case numbers as that will take away from Terry's future publication that he has worked years on. Just understand, this "range" of serial numbers with a double or triple 0 dates to 1948 and is a "bridge" between the H prefix and J prefix Wadsworth cases for Hamilton. Hope this helps. Happy Hunting!

Mike,

I was hoping that there might be a "magic" case number that could have been used to say "this is where the Model 2's started being used for 992B casing". And that if there was he would consider sharing it. Obviously it wasn't as simple as that (it seems that Hamilton could never be accused of being simplistic). And Terry's explanation of the serial number of the case shows that the letter/numbering sequence methodology employed by Hamilton doesn't appear to support such a simple concept.

Thank you for the additional info on this case. After reading Terry's explanation my gut feeling was that it orginally held a 992B, but because I haven't held it, and it was reported to have held a 992 last I just wanted to see if there were other possibilities. I don't own this case, don't plan on owning it and I'd like you and Terry to both know I wasn't asking for information that would benefit me in any way other than to help me learn more. I saw this case, remembered your statement, and felt compelled to ask about the obvious difference. There was nothing more than that behind my question. Sometimes I'm not sure if I'm crossing a line by asking about these things, because a future publication is in the works. But I've never asked anything of Terry that would aid me in making money or even, that I can recall, to make a specific purchase based on the answer, so I hope that is not the perceived reason behind my questions.

Regards,

Tref

point one.......

It has not been fully determined if the leading digits are zeros, or an OH then zeros...


point two...

the earliest cases will be marked "pat's pend'g"...

now if someone has a "patent applied for" PLEASE come forward

Point three......

It would take finding each watch and documenting it to determine an specific serial number for the beginning..... it may be possible to be 'closer' at some time.. but no warranty on that......

especially with

all the switching, watch breaking, upgrading, etc that is rampant in the hobby..... just look at current ebay listing...... a vast majority now are COMPONENTS.... enuff of the soapbox....


i have shared much info to many.... heck i don't know when a book will evolve........ but if one does not get out there and look at these watches, you cannot grasp the concepts ........

p.s. i knew the label would bring questions.... go ahead..... don't know if they can be answered...

Thank you Terry!!!

About the label, Does MHG mean Melamine Heavy Gothic?

Oh, as for getting out there and looking at the watches, in my case my situation requires me to stay close to home, so the looking I do is centered on and primarily done on the internet. And I do A LOT of looking. I understand it's not the best way, but it's all I have...

that is how i interpet the label... whyddeydodat?

i understand on the looking around... it is not as easy as it used to be to see stuff in person...

the web has made stuff more available to see, but it is just not the same...


.

The key to this particular whydeydodat may lie in the idea that these labels may have been hand-typed. And if that is true then the human element not only introduces the possibility of mistakes, but also interpretation...and perhaps on that day a new "box-label typist" thought the correct acronym was MHG instead of simply HG. As you and others have said, there are things we may never know.

Thanks!

Tref

i have other anomalies in labels documented... plus some outright fakes..

To add to the data base, and for what it worth, 992B serial number C10754 has a model #2 case H449836. PAT. 5-22-26 under 10K. GOLD FILL. No shevron.

Thanks Matthew,

that seems to be in line...

dial type?
box?

btw... the 'chevrons' ended in the twenties... even before the intro of the 992E.. so we would hope to not find them on an H prefix case.

Heavy Gothlic. I have an image , but it's contorted for some reason. You can still determine type however.

Just to add another for the data base, I have a #2 Wad 10k H384821 with Pat date below ser#. This case is home to a 992E 2653183 with a 519 DS dial. This combination is all original as the Hamilton ID price tag is still with it and shows both ser#'s. Price marked....$60!

Michael,
According to the Hamilton "Gelson List", your movement was made in 1940.

Robert

Robert, Myguide states the movement to be around 1936-'37. Were the 992E's different? There isn't a C preceeding the ser#.

Oh, Also the case has the beaded bezel.

992E with tag

Michael,
Thanks for sharing your photos.

The "Gelson List" is the most accurate available in my opinion.

I'm not sure if Hamilton made any changes to the 992E (Elinvar) during it production from 1931 until the introduction of the 992B in Nov. 1940. Others may have that information.

The 992B was introduced as an entirely new movement which included the "Elinvar Extra" hairspring.

The "Elinvar Extra" was an improved hairspring over the originial.

Below is the No. 2 in an excerpt from the Hamilton 1938 Catalog.

Robert

Once again, thanks for the great information. I'm realizing that Shugart's guide is just that, a guide. You guys have much of the definitive information. Great job as always!

Mike